Ep 233 Erin Whalen | The Anticipatory Grief of My Sister Dying From Cerebral Palsy

In this touching episode, Erin Whalen shares her heartfelt journey of growing up with her beloved sister, Gina, who had cerebral palsy. Through her personal experience of anticipatory grief and loss, Erin found her calling as the founder of Compassionate Coaching, where she now helps end-of-life and bereavement professionals develop essential communication skills. 

Erin opens up about the profound impact of losing Gina in 2016 and how their unique sister relationship – though different from what many might consider typical – shaped her deep understanding of nonverbal communication and empathy. 

Erin's story beautifully illustrates how our most challenging life experiences can transform into gifts we share with others. As she discusses her ongoing connection with Gina's memory and her work teaching empathy skills, Erin reminds us that grief takes many forms and that there's no "right" way to grieve. Her mission to help others feel seen and heard in their grief journey stems from her own understanding of anticipatory grief – an experience she lived with for 40 years before finding the language to describe it. 

For those living with anticipatory grief or supporting someone with special needs, Erin's story serves as a tender reminder that they're not alone in their complex emotions. Her work is a beautiful testament to how our deepest wounds can become our greatest gifts in serving others. 

RESOURCES:

• Website
• Book Waitlist
• Grieving Voices Ep. 40 with Chris Kerr

CONNECT WITH ERIN:

• IG
• Linkedin

Transcript

Victoria Volk: Hello, and welcome to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Erin Wallen. She is the founder of Compassionate Coaching whose mission is to restore dignity to the grieving and dying and to help them feel seen and heard. By filling the cups of and providing communication skills to those who serve them. Before founding compassionate coaching in the fall of 2020, Erin spent fourteen years as a professional actress and role player, particularly in medical education. She uses that background as an actor, trainer, facilitator, and playback theater practitioner to develop highly interactive, cathartic, and memorable programming that centers around giving and receiving empathy for professionals in the end of life and bereavement field. Aaron uses her own experience with grief, particularly her sister Gina's death in twenty sixteen and her lifelong relationship with anticipatory grief to infuse her work with empathy and compassion. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your personal grief story in particular here on my podcast today.

Erin Whalen: Thank you for having me, Victoria. I'm really happy to be here.

Victoria Volk: And I think this is a very interesting niche as someone, I'm a trained end of life, Dula. And I even know in my energy healing work, the organization through which I trained with bio field tuning in particular, they're now talking more about facilitating training to help people have really just teaching people practitioners how to communicate with their clients. And even when I went through my end of life, life do a training, that really wasn't a heavy emphasis either. Because I think it's it's almost like this given or people think it's this given natural gift that empathy is a natural gift. Right? I think it is. Some people haven't and really some people where where it comes easily. Right? And people can really struggle with putting themselves in other people's shoes and empathizing and and relating in that way. And so I think you found a niche for yourself that's probably very needed because that doesn't come natural for a lot of people.

Erin Whalen: Right? It it didn't come naturally for me. It was something I had to learn, and I think that Actually, going back to my sister Gina, at her wake, I had a cousin come up to me. And she said, she said, this this is gonna sound funny. She said, but I really think that having Gina as your sister, Gina was really severely disabled, she had cerebral palsy. And she said, I think having Gina as your sister really helps make you, you know, who you are. And in my mind, I'm like, nah, I'm just naturally, like, warm and gifted and, like, I'm just I'm just a good human, like, that and then I'm like, no. No. No. Like, that is absolutely true. Like, when you are in a household where, you know, you see death, imminent, and illness as your daily bread, you can't help. But, I mean, you could, like, you could you could become better and, you know, I've definitely I've definitely been working my own bitterness and things, but, like, hopefully, that enables you to become a more compassionate human. But even if you have that compassion kind of naturally, like, you these are skills. It's communication skills. It's not it's not something that you're either born with or not. As you said, like some people are more naturally gifted in it, just like some people are more naturally gifted in music. But, you know, unless you're you're a prodigy, you you actually have to learn, like, you actually have to learn things and even prodigis. I'm sure learn things. So you have to practice the skills. You have to learn the the notes and the scales and the communication skills.
You have to learn things like empathy, you have to learn things like how to be aware of your own cadence and your own nonverbal communication, and how do you learn about other people's nonverbal communication? Those are skills you have to learn.

Victoria Volk: You know, even if it comes natural, I agree with that too. Yeah.

Erin Whalen: Exactly.

Victoria Volk: And then the flip side of that is, like, passionate fatigue that can often happen when you're either exposed to that on an ongoing basis as helpers or healers often are or even just caregivers?

Erin Whalen: Absolutely. I've often said I'm there to serve the people who are at the bedside because I know being at the bedside, maybe that will change in in some, you know, season of my life. But at this point, I look at that and I say, that's not what I'm called to. So, you know, he was a death jewel. I I tip my hat to you and I say, you're doing work that most people on the planet can't envision themselves doing. And so we know that we need you. And so I'm here to serve you all. I'm here to say, I can help you with these things so that you can continue doing the work that you love, so that you can continue doing the work the work that you love and have it not exhaust you. As much as it might if you didn't have these skills.

Victoria Volk: I want to circle back to that, so let's put a pin in that. PIN? Yes. Because I think it's important for whether you're a caregiver or whether you work in this industry or not. I think you have a lot to share on that.
But first, I wanna let's rewind the clock and Okay. To what brought you to this work and that you kind of you mentioned it briefly, but your sister Gina who had cerebral palsy cerebral palsy? I will say that wrong.

Erin Whalen: I know. I growing up, we always heard cerebral palsy. Yeah. But then, like, I started, you know, once YouTube and things are around, then it's cerebral palsy and it's like, yeah, I don't even know. I don't even she had CP.
She had CP.

Victoria Volk: So was she older or younger than you?

Erin Whalen: Older, older.

Victoria Volk: Mhmm.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. So that's that's part of it too is that now I'm living I'm reaching ages that Gina never reached. So that's that's the season I'm in is that I'm forty eight and I just turned forty eight like two weeks ago. And just over two weeks ago because Gina died in twenty sixteen. She was forty five and it was two weeks after I turned forty.
So it was, you know, now I'm I'm forty six was a really odd year for me because I was like, this is weird to be the age my older sister never reached. But forty seven and forty eight, I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm here. I'm ready for it.

Victoria Volk: Just talked about this with the last guest I recorded with whose episode won't go live until twenty twenty five just like yours, but we had talked about that and how it's the dates that people really don't talk about. The ages, the milestones that we grow up with sometimes. I mean, considering I was very young when my father passed away, so he was forty four when he passed away. So for me to you know, that was one of the things too. Like, okay, I'm going to be the age that my father passed away soon. Just what does that mean for me? You know? And I can relate to that. And I think many people listening to this can relate to that. And so how have you navigated those milestones? And and how have you honored your sister's life when those have come around?

Erin Whalen: Well, I remember when I was getting ready to turn forty six. And It was I was at a job and it was a really cool job where I go and I go off-site to a resort and I get to work with physicians who are improving their communication skills. So I'm like, this early morning walk on this like golf course and it's, you know, sunrise and I'm just like loving life. But I'm also very tender with my heart because I was getting ready in just a few days to turn forty six, which was the age that Gina never reached. And as I was walking, I was talking with Gina, which I, you know, I never heard the term continuing bonds until recently ish. And I'm like, oh, they're real. Like, those continuing bonds are so real. So I talked to Gina all the time. I was talking to her as I was walking. And I had been listening to a song also that really, like, unlocks my heart and it's called forgiven by dev talent and it's just this beautiful song. And I'm talking to Gina and listening to the music and I say and I say to her and I say Gina, you know, when you were forty five, you died. And I sensed that she said back to me, and when you were forty six, you lived. And literally, like, within seconds of having that conversation with Gina, I look up and there is this blue hair in, like, very close to me and he just lifts up and takes flight. And it was one of those moments that you're like, this was deep. Like, I'm gonna remember this. Actually, I'm in the process of finishing up my book and it's in the books. It's like one of those moments where you're just like, this is something. And you know, it's interesting because that was right before I turned forty six. And I'm glad I had that conversation with Gina, and I'm glad she said you lived because it really was a hard year. It really was a difficult year. And so now that I passed it and I'm a couple years past that that age, I can look back and say, you're right, Gina. Like, it was a hard year, but I lived. Like, I'm still here. I'm still here, I'm still trying to make this world a better place. And so and so that was that was really memorable.
So I think, you know, communicating with her to get back to your actual question, Victoria. Communicating with her has helped me. Honoring certain dates. You know, for me, it's her birthday and then her the date that she died, which is November thirtieth. Like, those are dates that I honor her and remember her in a specific, but it is every year what that honoring looks like because I'm a firm believer in, like, do what makes sense for you this time and you don't have to do anything big or like if you do something small, it doesn't mean you love them less.
Right? Like it can be really small and it doesn't have to be anything. So finding little ways, little ways to Why usually we, as a family, eat ice cream sandwiches on her birthday and then the day that she died because she left ice cream sandwiches. And that's that's about that's about it. Like, that's really all I do these days when those dates come around because that works for me. And I know that it doesn't mean I love her less if I'm not doing something big. The first birthday after Gina died the first time her birthday rolled around. I ran a five k and I'm not a runner. But I was like, I'm gonna do this for Gina and because Gina was wheelchair bound. She never walked.
And so for me, it was like, I am going to use all of the things, you know, and opportunities that Gina never had, and now I'm really content just having an ice cream too much.

Victoria Volk: And I love how you shared how that can change over time. And I think as we evolve with our grief, it's normal and it's natural for that to change over time, like you said.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. It's like the last thing we wanna do is pressure griefers to, like, do something. Like, you don't have to do anything. It's okay.

Victoria Volk: And like you said, it's I mean, I know people have very different people have different bearing beliefs. Mhmm. But those continuing bonds, like, I think so many people really don't acknowledge or accept or They think it's woo woo or whatever to communicate with those who have passed. That certainly wasn't something that was taught to me that that was okay even as a child. Like, that would have been an amazing healing tool I think for me as a child to Mhmm.
Someone to give me that permission, right, or to give me that understanding that that's possible. Right? And I think as Grievers It's so important to have something to believe in.

Erin Whalen: Mhmm. I

Victoria Volk: do. And if that can give you hope,

Erin Whalen: mhmm, in

Victoria Volk: your healing, then by all means, it's it's worth doing. And that's a small thing that you can do on a daily basis.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

Victoria Volk: One of the things that you don't have to answer if you don't want to is my own curiosity. Your sister is older than you. And I can imagine that people who parents who have a child with special needs, question, should I have more kids given when someone has something that would require a lot more care and things like that, have you personally ever felt like or growing up, felt the weight of that? Of being another child in the home to be cared for. Like, did that influence your independence?
Do you think?

Erin Whalen: I think so. I think it was I was a pretty quiet kid. I internalized a lot. And so I think for me, it was assessing the situation. Without realizing I was doing it and realizing, okay. Like, clearly, someone here needs has great needs and much greater than I will ever have. And so it'd probably be best for me to just, you know, not make a not make trouble. Right? So that was kind of my role, if you will, was kind of a really good kid. I mean, I'm sure. Mean, there are many times I was not a good kid. But, you know, for the most part, I was good in school and, you know, I didn't have I didn't get into trouble at school or I was I was pretty easy in that that way. And so I think I internalized it. I don't think I ever ever logically, like, came to that conclusion. I think I just kinda slipped into that. And maybe some of it has to do with my temperament. You know, I'm very introverted. I do believe that that is something that's, you know, from from birth and, like, whether Gina had CP or not, I'm sure I would have been an introvert. Right? And so, you know, maybe that was part of it too. But, yeah, I think I think I just kind of realized that, you know, well, someone really needs a lot of care. And, you know, school came easy for me. Like, I didn't I just kind of did what I needed to do to to be a good kid. You know? And I was happy. Like, I I had friends, I had what I needed, and but I I do think there was this kind of subconscious feeling of, like, I don't wanna I don't wanna be causing more need in the house. There's already such profound need.

Victoria Volk: Was it just you and your sister?

Erin Whalen: No. I'm the youngest of four. Okay. So I have a living older sister and a living older brother.

Victoria Volk: And they're old they're both older than Gina?

Erin Whalen: Gina is the second. Okay. So my brother and I are both younger than Gina.

Victoria Volk: You know, they just say there's an importance in this in the birth order. Right? And I think that plays a role definitely in in a situation like this where there is a child with special needs Yeah. And requiring special care and things like that. Was there ever a time? Do you feel like where you had this awareness about that where oh, gosh. I do have needs. And they haven't been met in a really long time or it's time that I meet my own needs or things like that. Like, I'm just talking about needs. Right?

Erin Whalen: Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: I mean, we can have our basic needs met. I'm talking emotional or connection wise, especially if you internalize a lot of that. Right? And there's

Erin Whalen: Yeah. You

Victoria Volk: don't want to necessarily communicate that openly. How did that translate, I guess, that awareness about that into your teen and adult years?

Erin Whalen: You know, it's something I I didn't really think about until much later. I think for me, it's more about recognizing, like, grieving what could have been, if that makes sense. And I know I, you know, was on your website and and I know that you're an advocate for, like, grief is more than you know, the death of a loved one. Right? Grief is bigger than that. There are all sorts of things and circumstances that we grieve. And so, you know, one thing for instance that I grieve recently was, well, I didn't have typical sisterly relationship with Gina. Like, I didn't have that. And my older sister was six years older, which doesn't sound like a lot, but, like, oldest versus youngest, it was just like there was a big gap there. And so Gina was, you know, the closest sister to me age wise, and I really recently grieved that loss of what could have been, what what would it have been like to have had you know, quote unquote, normal sisterly relationship with her. And that that has been more on my mind lately of like, what would that have been like? Would that have, you know, would we have gotten along? Would we have thought? Would we have, you know, I have no idea. Would we have shared secrets?
Would we have, you know, talked about boys? Would you know, I don't know. I don't know.

Victoria Volk: What do you think has been the greatest impact for you with this grief and this loss in particular?

Erin Whalen: I think for me, I had not heard the word anticipatory grief until a friend mentioned it to me maybe a year and a half ago. I lived it for forty years and I never had language for it. And so I think the gift is one of the gifts. There are so many. But one of them is, like, now I can say, oh my gosh. And I, like, talk about anticipatory grief all the time. No. I can't stop talking about it. Because I finally have language for this figure if someone dying, if anyone dying, still have that. Like, I I'm always afraid my husband is gonna die, like, every day. Every day. I'm, like, planning as funeral. It's ridiculous. This feeling of dread every time I would say goodbye to Gina was, like, oh my gosh. This is the last time. Like, all of these experiences in this, like, just cloud that was just my normal. It was just my absolute normal. It was the family I was born into you know, by the time I was born, Gina had been diagnosed. She was clearly not reaching milestones that I would soon reach. And so for me, it's there are so many people out there. If I didn't have language for it and I lived it for forty years, there are so many people who are probably asking if they're like, if there's something wrong with them, if they're going crazy. And I can tell them no. Like, you're there's nothing wrong with you. You're not going crazy. Yes. It's okay to feel relief when someone dies after a very long illness. Yes. It's okay if you don't cry a lot after they die. Like, that was my experience. I spent a long time thinking I was broken because my grief after Gina died was so seemingly minuscule. And so now the gift is I can tell people, like, wait, wait, there's this thing that you probably don't know about and you might be experiencing it and you're not broken.

Victoria Volk: I love the belief and I've I've shared this a lot in previous episodes and things. I think the language or the word can be helpful in understanding. But to me, grief is grief.

Erin Whalen: Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: And grief is normal and natural in whatever shape or form it takes. And I'm curious. Yeah. Because we were talking about the language. And ironically, you talk you teach communication in the genre of end of life. So I'm curious if growing up if grief was openly talked about and Gina's imminent death and all of those things.

Erin Whalen: It was not it was not

Victoria Volk: do you think that's kind of where this mission was born in some respects?

Erin Whalen: I mean, possibly possibly I mean, my parents did the best they could. Right? I mean, I can't imagine. Four kids in six years, one of them severely disabled. I can't imagine. And so, you know, there's no blame or regret there. There's none of that. There's not a sense of righteousness of like, I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna go out there and tell people what I didn't know. I'm a firm believer that people really do the best that they can at the time. And so it it was it was born of a time when I was, like, journaling and and, like, as far as my company goes and and where I wanted to take it, I was praying and journaling. And as I was journaling and I was kind of pinpointing different moments in my life or different jobs that really felt like the right kind of fit, different volunteer opportunities, just different things from my life. And when I looked at the ones that were most resonant, it they really had to do a lot with, like, grief and death. And so that's where the the goal of working with end of life workers, grief workers came from. And then I recently expanded it to do more to to grievers and and to continue to work with people who are in the profession. But to grievers themselves and to teams who may be trying to prep process loss or trying trying to process grief, there's some big movements to really look at how we handle grief in the workplace and so kind of broadening that scope. But it really did have its root in that prayer time, journaling time, and looking at the things in my life, and the moments, and the relationships. And of course, you know, Gina was in there. And it just felt I don't think I was put I think the pieces like like the puzzle's there, but the pieces go in slowly. And I'm sure there are other revelations I'll have later. But at the time, I wouldn't have been able to say, like, oh, clearly, this is in response to the situation of growing up with a severely disabled sister. But now, of course, it is. Like, of like, I'm looking at you know, like, his deposit gets more and more complete. You're like, oh, of course, that's a cat. Like, it didn't look like a cat until three minutes ago, but, like, that's of course, that's a cat. So, like, of course, it's all connected to Gina and the communication skills. I had a friend point out to me recently, which I had not made the connection. That's the other thing is that, like, when it's your own puzzle, it's like a puzzle of your own life. Like, you really need help, like, seeing the piece. This because you're like, I mean, it just all looks like clouds to me.

Victoria Volk: Like, I don't know I don't know

Erin Whalen: what I'm looking at. But someone else can come in and be like, okay. Can you see over here? Like, this this cloud looks like a cat and this one looks like a frog and it's like, oh, I had I had no idea. But I had a friend say to me or help me realize that because Gina was essentially nonverbal, we had to be able to interpret her noises, the sound she would make. And I had not pieced that together that, like, I was getting a Ph. D. In nonverbal communication, and I had no idea. All those years, I had no idea. And I didn't realize that until very recently, a friend pointed that out to me. And I'm like, Dah, you're right. And so this this concept of communication skills is really strikingly because of Gina, although I never, which is it seems ironic. It's like my nonverbal sister is a huge reason why I'm in communication skills work today, but it makes all the sense in the world.

Victoria Volk: And I think one of the lessons that one would get out of that is learning how to be present and attuned to the cues from someone else and the environment to become more sensitive to those things. And I think nature is constantly giving us cues. And nonverbal communication. Right? You have a dog.
My dog looks at me. And I can tell he needs to go outside. He doesn't have to bark or he doesn't have to growl or he doesn't have to do anything. He just gives me this look. It's like this ES key, you know, that you develop this connection.
It's the connection that you intentionally put effort to that helps you draw those conclusions. Oh, this is what you need. This is what you meant. It's no different than infants or children. They can cry. Right? They cry. That's the only thing they have is to cry. When they need something. That's how they communicate.
Well, what if they can't cry? What if they're nonverbal. Right? They adapt. They adapt. I think we naturally adapt when something about us isn't functioning optimally. We adapt. And so I really think it has helped you become hyper focused on nonverbal cues of other people and body language and and all of that. I grew up in an environment of chaos. And so me, it was always anticipating the next so tone of voice. And Mhmm. I mean, that's huge for me. Ton of voice, and it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Feeling the energy of someone's physical body seeing that, you know, like almost have an x-ray vision. I can tell what they're thinking just based on their body language. So that is I'm highly attuned to that. I think these are skills that we are born that we've not born into, but well, we're born into our families. Correct? But the environment in which we are in is so paramount. In influencing to who we become. And I think we underestimate that. Yeah. And we don't connect the dots either for ourselves. It's like you were describing. It's like you can't see the, like, one of my friends does it all the time. You can't see the label from inside the jar. It's totally true. This is where grief support is imperative because it's really difficult to to often connect those dots for ourselves.

Erin Whalen: Exactly. That's exactly it. Yeah. And kudos to you for recognizing that, like, based on your family upbringing and dynamic, and so that's made you hyper aware of people's energy and tone of voice and things like that. And so and you have this steady, smooth, like, soothing tone of voice and

Victoria Volk: So people tell me all the time.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. It's just so calming, and so I'm sure that the greeters you support and everyone who listens to your podcast appreciate that that very soothing tone.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. It's something too that I started creating meditations because I kept hearing that. So it's like, again, like, our environment, the people that are in their lives, they're we're constantly getting cues and information, and I think becoming a tune to that is really how you develop your intuition and and listening to those messages that we receive. Would you have considered yourself an intuitive child?

Erin Whalen: I think looking back, I can say yes, but I don't know if at the time I was, like aware of it, there was one really interesting situation in high school that I was like, oh, that was weird. Like, that was something that and I'm I'm a Christian. Like, I I have a very strong belief in an afterlife and connection with those who have died and there was one very interesting experience that I was like, not not everyone had that experience. Like, that was weird. So besides that one moment, I don't think I would have recognized myself at the time as intuitive, but looking back, I say, absolutely, I was.

Victoria Volk: What you do is so helpful in people, I think in the process of probably working with you developing that connection for themselves because in learning how to be an open flow of communication with another person, you're gonna start receiving these intuitive knowings or these hits or these mails, you know, information in your mail slot. Like, what to say next? How to say it? What do they need to hear? And again, that doesn't come natural. And so thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I think it's amazing. I think it's nichey, and I love it. And, yeah, very much needed.

Erin Whalen: Thank you. Thank you for the work you do because like I said, most of the world looks at people who work in hospice are as end of life do less and say like, nah, like that's not for me. And so we need you. Like, we need all the people who feel that calling to live that calling out because it's a beautiful calling and most of the world is not called to it.

Victoria Volk: Well, my confession is is that I haven't been doing that work. Yet because I haven't figured out what that looks like for me. That's fine. Yeah. I got the training because I knew that it was something that I wanted. Yeah. I watched my father pass cancer very prevalent in my family. And I didn't actually, I wasn't with him when he passed, but I wanted to be. Right? And wish I could have been and all of those things. But I watched his slow decline over years. But it taught me that when we have a knowing that we are going to pass, which it's a blessing and a curse. I think it's you can choose how you wanna exit, and how many people not everybody gets that opportunity. I see it as an opportunity. Yes. Really weird opportunity, but totally knowing what I know now is I can choose who I want to visit. Me or who I don't want to come visit me. I can choose if I want my body washed by my loved ones or not. I can choose how I want the environment to be. I can choose where I want to be. I can I can I have choice and say And that's a sense of agency that not everybody gets? And so I think that's the blessing in knowing when it's coming or not when it's coming, but that it's eminent. Right? Yes. And I think the hardest part for loved ones. And those who are find themselves in that situation is the acceptance that it is coming, that it is going to happen. There is nothing that you can do about it. And I think we waste a lot of time, precious time wrapped up in the details, the bills, the mundane communications of day to day life, which need to happen, of course, Yeah. Logistics and all of that. Those conversations need to happen. But how about the deeper conversations saying what you need to say, addressing the communications that have gone undelivered over the years? Yeah. All those things. Anything you wanna share on that? What you've learned about end of life through your personal experience and through working with those in the industry and things like that? What have you have found? Like, that's been the most, like, I did not ever realize or think of it this way.

Erin Whalen: Well, one of my favorite concepts of people who now granted we know like a lot of lives and tragically or abruptly. And so we're not talking about that, but we're talking about people who maybe have a terminal illness and they know that death is imminent. And there is more choice in agency. And I love. I heard one chaplain call it a welcoming committee. Like, people who are dying will see loved ones who have already died and just the stories of, like, the the way that they see that whether it's like they're in the room or they're like, across a river. Maybe it's Jesus himself has come to get you. And, like, I just I love that concept so much. I remember one time I attended a training, it was like a two day intensive training. I was in the midst of mostly clinical people. It was clinicians who were either oncologists or hospice nurses, and then there were, like, social workers, and then there were chaplains. And I was, like, I'm a non clinician. I am not certified in any of these fields. And it was such an amazing training. And so, like, it was that two day training. And I'm surrounded by people who are, like, doing incredible end of life work and then watching this webinar from the chaplain who talked about the welcoming committee. I had this huge heart and I couldn't wait to come home and tell my husband, and I'm like, John, that's my husband. I was like, I want Gina to be the president of my welcoming committee when I'm going to die. And I was just like beaming and he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, yes. I'm like, it's gonna be amazing. Like, she because I don't know what her voice sounds like. You know? Like, it's gonna be just so special to, like, hear her call my name and be like, Erin, it's time. Like, I'm ready for you. I've been preparing this little cottage for you. Let's it's right next to my cottage. Like, let's go. So that that has been the coolest thing to me when I've been learning from people who do this work or doing my own research in what's the final chapter is, like, I just think that is so cool.

Victoria Volk: Headful body chills as you were describing that. So it sounds like truth to my body. Yeah. And I think so many people who are witnessing the dying process, it can be very scary. And I think it's those people that can have the opportunity to bridge that gap of information and knowledge that you know, they can pass on to family that's it's normal and it's natural and, you know, it's normal and natural to not drink for maybe days. You know, people are trying to force water and but it's normal and natural or they call it picking. It's

Erin Whalen: Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: Oh, and they're trying to, like, touch the theory. You know, I've there's a gentleman that was on my podcast, Chris Kerr. He he's written a book. Death is but a dream. He was on the Netflix series, the documentary.
What was now it's surviving death,

Erin Whalen: actually, is what it's called. Okay. So he was

Victoria Volk: on my podcast, but he talked about that. Like, people so many people think that people are hope hallucinating. And that can seem scary. Like, oh, they're seeing people and that's normal and natural. Yeah. It's the welcoming committee. You know? Right. I

Erin Whalen: think they're reaching out to,

Victoria Volk: you know, that is a natural part of the process. And Yeah. It's a beautiful thing.

Erin Whalen: It is. I think too, the communication of like you said, like, you've gotta have people who can bridge that gap and, like, doing it in a way that's so loving and so I can see you're gonna be such so amazing at the bedside because you have such this calm, soothing way and you're so intuitive about people's emotions. And so recognizing, like, this is most people don't know, right, about these things. Like, I'm still learning. Like, most people don't know the natural process of dying.
And so it's scary if you don't know what's coming and what's happening and it's doubly scary if it's your loved one. Right? And so there's just so much fear there. And so you have to find a way to communicate while taking their their emotions into consideration. Right? And how do you do that? And how do you how do you lovingly let them know that this is normal? And And how do you, you know, how do you hold space for their reactions of, like, if they're putting it two and two together and they're realizing, if this is normal, this is normal dying, then we're getting closer to death. Like, that's that's a hard that's a hard thing to accept. And so I just know you're gonna be so wonderful with the families and with those who are dying and you'll just be such a hand holder.

Victoria Volk: Thank you for that. I think one of the things people too don't realize is that you can be in hospice care before you are that close. Like, I think it's a yearly assessment. Right? Like, I think it's a year I don't know. It might be different state to state. But from my understanding is once you can get in, it's like a yearly assessment. But, yeah, you can be in hospice care for years.

Erin Whalen: Nurse so many benefits.

Victoria Volk: And that doesn't mean, like, people equate to hospices, their oh, their end of life, they're dying. Right. But it it doesn't have to be and that's what I hear so often too. Most people end up dying actually in the hospital.

Erin Whalen: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: With your illness. Because they did not realize that hospice care was an option long before.

Erin Whalen: I know. Or didn't they

Victoria Volk: accept that that was a possibility?

Erin Whalen: Right. Yeah. Oh, the whole conversation about hospice has to change. Right? Because it is it is it does have this reputation in the world for people who don't know. There's just a lot of fear and confusion. And then what happens is people delay entering, and then that that truth, it becomes truth, because then it is just for the last two weeks of life, because people, I think, physicians might delay the recommendation because I think from a physician standpoint, you know, you're taught to diagnose and treat and heal. And if you're at the point where you know that you cannot fix this, that's hard to admit. And so I think that doctors might also need to be making referrals sooner, you know. And how do they come to terms with, this is what's actually best for my patient, is for them to be entering hospice. This is the continuum of care. This is not us giving up on them. This is the continuing of care. There's so many analogies to, like, birth and death. And, you know, it's it's just part of the process. Like, birth is part of the process of your life. Death is part of the process of your life. And I do hope that, you know, there's more grace for everyone involved, for the referring physician, for the family who hears it, for the hospice team who, you know, onboards them, brings them to the to end at the world of hospice that, you know, there's grace and space for all of it to be as long as it needs to be.

Victoria Volk: I think one of the most difficult things I think in the work that you know, caregivers or people that work in end of life care and things like that, that what we're discussing today is the ability to be honest and transparent. And that's the physicians. It's the caregivers. It's the caretakers. It's the those who are dying.
It's I think until we become honest and transparent, then the communication can really flow naturally, I think. But I think as long as people are holding back and they're not saying the truth or speaking the truth, I think that that can I don't know? I think that that shit that changes how you communicate. I think you communicate very differently if you're being honest and transparent. Totally. And if you're in denial or skirting the truth or wanting to people, please? Or Fear. Right? I think a lot of it's fair. It comes down to fear.

Erin Whalen: Absolutely. And, you know, Bernie Brown says clear is kind. Right? It's actually a kindness to people to be clear. And I mean, so much of what you're gonna be doing, what hospice professionals do what physicians who are referring their patient to hospice, it's all breaking bad news. Right? And there's a process for how to break bad news to someone. It may not seem bad news to this person, but to the person who's having the conversation because they do it all the time. But for this family, for this person, for this patient, it's it will forever be etched in their memory. And so there's a way to do it in a loving way that is clear. I've worked with medical students on how to break bad news, and it's really hard for them. They're either too direct, too talkative, giving false hope, not allowing for pauses, space, not allowing for emotions, for emotional responses, where there's this beat around the bush, wave doing it that's like, you know, a patient knows they're there for something. Like, they they deserve to hear the truth. That there's a way to do it that's that's gentle and clear.

Victoria Volk: That is a great segue too. What are some tips in communication that you would provide? For those you work with, and also for grovers who themselves are trying to communicate what they're feeling or to those receiving the information in responding. That's really mixed bag of questions.

Erin Whalen: So I love it. I love it. Because there's communication for every Yes. People you named. Right? It's all because anytime it's two or more people work there's communication, whether you like it or not. Okay.

Victoria Volk: I guess that's the first I guess that's the first tip, right, is to recognize who your audience is. Mhmm. Yeah. Who are you speaking to?

Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. I think one of my favorite tips has to do with what I call heart moments and head moments. Mhmm. And a heart moment is anytime someone is expressing an emotion, a feeling. And a head moment is more at logic, data information. Even if the information is good, that's that's a head moment. And the point is you have to be aware of where the other person is If someone's in a heart moment, you cannot you cannot come in with your own head moment. You have to meet them with their heart first, and to give empathy, and to connect with them because and doctor I think his name is Daniel Siegal. I think I got his name right. He's a pediatrician, and he talks about flipping the lid because the brain is like my thumb is the amygdala, and then this is the prefrontal cortex. And so when people are having a strong emotional response, they have literally flipped the lid And this, like, decision making logical brain is, like, temporarily gone. And this, like, everything's on fire. I'm gonna get eaten by a saber tooth tiger. Part of your brain is the one that's responding. And so that's not the time to say, like, this is normal, this is a normal process of death, or studies show that, you know, eighty two percent of people who take the chemo ready a patient that we're offering, we'll see success with it. Like, that's not the time for that. Like, if the lid has been flipped, you need to empathize with them, you need to name their emotion, and you say you seem really scared right now. Wow, that was a lot. Tell me what's going on.
I noticed a shift. I noticed that you furrowed your brow. Can you tell me what you're thinking? Like, those are ways to to meet someone in their head moment. And then slowly they'll calm down. And then you can then you can have talk about the information and stuff. So that's one of my favorite tips for communication is heart moments and head moments, and you you cannot You cannot come in with a head moment if someone else is in a hard moment. You just can't. It's not gonna go well. You're gonna waste a lot of time. I

Victoria Volk: love that.

Erin Whalen: Right? It's fun.

Victoria Volk: What's fascinating to me about that is that infants naturally do this. Right. Impletes naturally mirror back to us. Yes. You know, you go like this.
You know, children will they'll do that. Impletes will do that or you know, milk, you know, sign language milk. They they learn to mirror that. Yeah. You know, if you're happy, a baby is gonna, you know The tone of voice, they mirror infants naturally mirror back us. And I think we just lose that with our our mind. Right? Yeah. They're they're in their heart all the time. You know?
I feel like, you know.

Erin Whalen: So that is so true. That is so true. Yeah. It says mirror neurons. Right?
It's like, It's just so normal. It's it's how they learn empathy. That's how they learn nonverbal communication. That's how they learn emotions. Right? And how they learn connection. Yeah. You're right. We we end up losing it.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. So be a baby, be a mirror,

Erin Whalen: be a baby. That's what it boils down to. That's even like a baby. Yeah. Being like a baby. You you had some other categories of people? Should we should we talk? Oh, yeah. Sure. Go ahead

Victoria Volk: and steps. Yes.

Erin Whalen: I know you said the grievers. Right? I think I mean, it's such

Victoria Volk: a great one too, though. That's still the same.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. It's you're right. You're right. It's hard because you don't wanna put the burden on the grievers. I mean, like, okay, grievers. Like, this is what you need to do. It's like, grievers shouldn't have to do anything. And yet, I think a good tip for grievers is to have just, like, a couple things in their pocket to pull out when they need it. Right? Like, if it's something you can't get out of and you know there's gonna be a nosy nos, nos person there or a chatty cafe, like, just have a pull out phrase that you can use at any time. I'm gonna go get some punch. It can literally be that. It can be like a total diversion. It can be a total, like, like, I'm I'm not comfortable talking about that right now. Or I'm fine. Thank you. Like, even if you're not fine, like, if it's chatty, Kathy, in the nose or nosey, then you can just be like, I'm fine. Thank you. Like, you can just have something to say. To a person that you don't feel like opening up to and that is okay.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. And I think people yeah. I think people you can't expect here's the deal. Like, don't even approach the griever. If you have never had a heart to heart with this person or you have never you don't even have to say anything elaborate. Right? Just unless you actually mean it, I'm here for you. Don't say it.

Erin Whalen: You know,

Victoria Volk: it's People can recognize and sniff BS out. Like, most people, especially at Grieber, like, they're gonna hear it over and over and over.

Erin Whalen: Yep.

Victoria Volk: Don't be us then. I mean, that's what I would say. Like, say what you mean and mean what you say. Can and and say it with compassion.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. I think that's good. I think that's really good. I have a friend, she's a grief coach, and she loves to say, you know, if it's if it's someone you're you're close to, and it's a a grieber who's lost someone recently. Just very specific, like, I'm bringing dinner tomorrow night.
Will you will you be home at six so I can leave it on your doorstep? You know? Or, like, as specific as possible.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. And even leaving it on the doorstep, it releases the expectation that, okay, I guess, I'm gonna have to, like, put on some clothes Right. Brush my hair. I know. Right? Do I have to see you?

Erin Whalen: I mean, I don't

Victoria Volk: really wanna see you. So yeah. If you release that pressure expectation that I actually have to open the door and have a conversation Yeah. I love that.

Erin Whalen: Right.

Victoria Volk: Because I can see myself, like, yeah, just leave it on the door so I don't have to feel obligated to Right. Now Engage.

Erin Whalen: No obligation needed. I mean, just like when, you know, standard practice, at least that I've seen, when someone has a baby, right, and you put together the meal plan, for the, you know, the meal drop off thing, the food train. Like, generally speaking, it's not the mom you're, like, texting with. It's like, you know, we set it all up so that the mom isn't the one who has to do the logistics of the receiving of the food. Right? Because they're busy. Like, they're busy healing and nursing. That's what they're doing. That's their job. And, like, hubby can be the one to get the text that says, you know, dinners on the doorstep or whatever, you know, or maybe moms in town. Mom can be the one. Like, give give them mom's number, but, like, don't don't put the onus on the on the person who's grieving the most. What's the poor and dump out? Right? Like, let's all pour into that person and let's let's dump out the other way.

Victoria Volk: I think another key amazing phrase for people to hear who are going through something challenging is, you know, when you're considering doing something, you know, at the end asking, is that okay? Because it might not be okay with that person.

Erin Whalen: Right?

Victoria Volk: And that gives them the autonomy to choose as well and the sense sense of agency to choose. Yeah. No. I appreciate it, but not right now. Thank you.
It gives them an opportunity to to accept or not accept. Mhmm. Oh, and I think because what can happen in situations like that too, right? Like, everybody can pour in all at once. And then two weeks later, it's like dead silent.

Erin Whalen: Right. You have, like, thirteen hundred bagels from Panera in your house, and then, you know, twelve hundred of them go bad, and then there's nothing and there's crickets.

Victoria Volk: So as a grieber, I could be like, you know what? I'm I'm good for now. Thank you, but you guys ask me again in three weeks.

Erin Whalen: Mhmm. Right? Yeah.

Victoria Volk: It's as a grieber than you're communicating what you need. Yeah. It gives you an opportunity to communicate your needs rather than someone pushing something on you and you feeling guilty to accept, right, or feeling pressure to accept, that might not be what you need at that moment. So I think is that okay? Is a great question to ask at the end of anything you're proposing to do or, you know, any action you're thinking about taking, I guess?

Erin Whalen: I love that too. I love that. From a communication standpoint, you know, we talk about open ended questions versus closed ended questions.

Victoria Volk: Mhmm.

Erin Whalen: And generally, like, when you want the conversation to flow. Like, you do an excellent job as a podcast host. Right? You're asking open ended questions. Right?

Victoria Volk: I'm a questioner. I'm naturally a questioner. I'm over short of questions.

Erin Whalen: But you're very good at it. Right? It comes naturally to you.

Victoria Volk: Yes.

Erin Whalen: And but open ended questions cannot be answered with yes or no. They require

Victoria Volk: Mhmm.

Erin Whalen: They require some sort of explanation. While closed ended questions, are perfect for this situation, which is why you said, is that okay with you? They can say yes or no. They don't have to come up with a thing. Right?
Anytime we can relieve the burden of the grieber coming up with a thing, then that's better in my opinion. Yeah. So exactly as you said, like, I'm planning on, you know, bringing over a a banana bread. For tomorrow? Is that okay?
I can drop it on your doorstep. Is that okay? Yes or no? Versus, I would love to bring you a breakfast. Please tell me what you would like.

Victoria Volk: Mhmm.

Erin Whalen: Like, that's just like, I don't know what I would like.

Victoria Volk: Well, and then you're like, again, like, I'm gonna have to engage with this person. Right? Might not be hungry tomorrow. Right. I really don't eat breakfast.
Well, then I'm gonna have to say no. And then they're gonna feel like, well, I tried to do this thing and she said no. And then telling her friends, well, she doesn't want my help. You know what I mean when that creates? Look at how that can snowball.
Snowball.

Erin Whalen: Yes. Yeah.

Victoria Volk: This is why relationships with grovers can fall apart and fade to the background because of miscommunication and not reading the room

Erin Whalen: Right. And

Victoria Volk: not anticipating the next, like, play that scenario out to the end. Like, and if it were me, if it were me, would I want ten people out telling me I, you know, they're gonna bring me breakfast and to tell me what they want and probably not. So maybe I shouldn't be asking this person the same thing. Right?

Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Volk: So this is why I think it's so excellent what you do because it's so needed.

Erin Whalen: Thank you. Yeah. It is it is important. It is important because it's it's also like we're all grievers. Right? I mean, whether you've had a significant loss in your life yet or not, you will. And, you know, we're all grieving all sorts of things. It doesn't have to be deaf. And so, like, we all just have to tap into that. Like you said, like, put yourself in their shoes. Would I, if this was me, if my loved one had just died and would I wanna be doing this? Would I want people saying this to me? Would I want them doing this? No. I would not. And, like, you also have to find there are so many resources out there too. Right? Like, there are so many wonderful ways to find this information. Unlike, how how do I communicate with creepers? Like, what is a good idea of something to say and not to say?
Like, LinkedIn has it all. Just search it up. Probably Instagram and TikTok too. But, you know, the the information is out there. It's out there. It's just a matter of of having the wherewithal to say, gosh, this is gonna be a delicate conversation. How do I want to handle it? How do I want to approach this person? And I've made mistakes, and I feel I don't know if you feel this, Victoria, but I feel extra pressure. I mean, it's silly. It's like, oh poor me. I feel extra pressure to, like, be a great support person when it's some you know, when I know someone. But I do. Like, I do feel an extra layer of, like, I gotta I really gotta nail this. Like, I really gotta and it's silly.
Like, I don't, like, I don't have to do it right. I'm a human being. Making an effort is better than not making an effort. Right? Like trying is better than not trying as long as you're not a total jerk. Even something like and I love this. I love the like I I don't know what to say. Right? Like, if you're approaching a grieber and you don't know what to say, like, say, like, I'm I wish I knew what to say right now. You know?

Victoria Volk: I've said that. I've said there are no words. Rapping you in the biggest hug.

Erin Whalen: Right?

Victoria Volk: Yeah.

Erin Whalen: Because, like, I mean, we can't like, empathy can only go so far. Like, you'd only put yourself in someone's shoes so far. Like, we can't really know what it's like because everyone's relationship is complicated and different and complex and, you know, we don't know. We don't know. And you know, like, we're both moms. Like, I can't imagine if something happened to my child. Right? Like, I can't imagine that. And, like, I can try and imagine, but I can't really know what it's like unless it happened to me. And so, another one of those Yeah. Like, there are no words. Like, I I don't know what to say.

Victoria Volk: That's one of the things I've actually heard Grieber say is Mhmm. People say all the time, I can't imagine. You know what? I want you to imagine. I want you to imagine.
I want you to know what this feels like. I want you to know what this pain feels like so that you know what it feels like. I've heard Grievers say that.

Erin Whalen: Thank you for that.

Victoria Volk: It's sometimes people really do want you to know what it feels like because you can't understand it until you feel it. And it's not wishing it on other people. But it that's why it's so can feel so isolating. That why grief can feel so isolating.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. It's it's like I'm going back to Bernae Brown. I don't know if you've seen the video of empathy with her and it's like this like creature in a hole, it's like the person up here, like, hey, that's a lot down there. It's like none of that really helps until this creature comes down, like, and sits with that other person, like, in the hole. Like, that's empathy is to, like, go and, like, sit with them in the in the yuck.

Victoria Volk: One of the things I say is people can't sit with we can only sit with others to the extent that we've sat with ourselves.

Erin Whalen: That's deep.

Victoria Volk: That's I mean, that was something I, in my hindsight and reflection, have figured out for myself. Like, because the me before the work that I've personally done on myself and the information and knowledge and tools that I've gained, the me before my grief, awareness, really, did not have the capacity. To do that. And but I thought I did. Right? I thought I could like, I was the one that people everybody came to, people I knew came to, and they needed a shoulder lean on. I was spreading myself thin. I was a people pleaser. I thought I could save the world. And when I couldn't, it was a reflection of me and my worth, and I turned it on myself, like, I'm a victim, or when circumstances would happen to me, you'd be like, I was a victim. I couldn't see the forest through the trees. Right? I I could not recognize I didn't have the hope. I didn't have the tools and the knowledge and the awareness to see beyond where I was at at the moment, but you work through that and you clean up that and you do the work of looking at the past really because people don't want to, but it's very important for our healing to connect the dots for ourselves. This is why in interviews like this one, I we rewind the clock.
We look at the past like how was grief talked about when you were growing up. It's influencing how you look at grief today.

Erin Whalen: Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: You know, and how the behaviors that you used to cope with grief, how did you cope as a child, how are you coping now? What connections are there? Because there are connections. I could go on my soapbox all a long day on this, but this is why I feel like, yes, our parents do what what they can with what they know. At the time. But this is why I get on my soapbox with parents today or caregivers. There's just individuals who are grieving today is that the work that you do on yourself has a ripple effect. This is how we change society is on a collective. As individuals, we sweep our own doorstep.

Erin Whalen: Yeah. I cannot agree more.

Victoria Volk: But I wanna know if there is any other tips that you have that are they I've loved this conversation. We've talked about stuff on this podcast today that I don't think I've ever we've ever I've ever had a conversation about certain aspects with anybody else. So this has been I've enjoyed this very much. So if there's anything else you would like to share on tips or anything like that that you don't feel you got to, please share.

Erin Whalen: And the other tips are things I didn't get to. I think what what I wanna say is what what you just said, like awareness is the first step. It's the first step in so many things. Right? It's the first step in grief. Really to be aware about, you know, whether it's how I'm feeling physically in my body? Like, what is the sensation that's happening right now? Is that grief? What is happening? Right? Like, it might Am I hunch? Am I tight? Am I am I sore? Am I sick to my stomach? Like, what is happening? Awareness is key. And then awareness for communication. Right? Like, we have to be aware of how we are how we come across, which is not easy. That's why I bring I I'm a professional role player, and then I bring professional role players with me so that how often do we get to practice having these hard conversations and get the feedback at the insight from the person that you're talking to? Never. Right? Not unless after we hit record, after you stop recording, you know, Victoria, you and I, like, okay. When I said this, I felt as though I was, you know, interrupting you a lot. Did you notice that? Or how did I come across on that piece when we were talking about x y z? Right? Like, unless we literally did that, you don't get that opportunity. And so being aware whether it's asking a dear close honest friend how you come across, we're getting some practice in, in a safe space where you can get that insight. I worked at an assisted living home.
I worked with the residents who had dementia years ago. And it was a hard job because, you know, people who have dementia like they they run on their own everything. Like, it's just they do whatever they want, whenever they want, and they're a hoot, and I loved them, and it was a hard job. And I ran their activities. So it was like, wow. It was so fun, and it was so hard. I would come in every morning. And I would and there was no, like, office. Right? You're just, like, in this, like, walk through space that I shared with my boss I would just put my stuff down and I would just like start going. And then one day, my boss said to me, you never say good morning, and I was shocked. And I was, like, crushed. I was, like, oh my gosh. I was just, like, trying to take this job. Like, I didn't say this out loud, but internalizing everything. I was, like, I'm just trying to take this job so seriously and just, like, get to work right away and, like, who needs this, who needs that? Like, I'm here, I'm ready to go. Right? But it shaped me because I was like, I was a horrible communicator back then. I wasn't even been wording. Right? I was coming in. I had no awareness. And so even for someone who does this for a living, I still need people to tell me okay, your tone was a little condescending there. Or you know what? You tried to empathize with me, but it came across like a robot because that's what you do for a living. You know, like, I I still need people to tell me that kind of stuff. So I think just awareness and find a trusted honest friend or come work with me because, you know, we can help you. We can gently offer you insight on how you're coming across and how you can how you can change. It's all changeable.
It's all This

Victoria Volk: would be, like, workshops for parents, workshops for teens who feel like, you know, what teen doesn't feel like they're heard sometimes. I'm sure my even my own kids. Right? Like

Erin Whalen: Yeah.

Victoria Volk: I yeah. This could be the communication is, you know, what do they say expectations or planned disappointments? And I think a lot of expectations can be nipped in the bud or curved with our communication? Tally. Even text, as you were talking in I actually worked in a nursing home too, and there we had a dementia ward too. But even with text messages, like, you sharing that story made me think of how I've become consciously aware of when I'm texting people, not just going right into the question or the statement or whatever. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, like the salutation. Right?

Erin Whalen: Right.

Victoria Volk: We do that in emails. Hello? Yeah. Why does it not come natural when we're, you know, meet somebody or see somebody in or, like, that's what I think where the texting is really we can really come off and be interpreted. Not with how we intend.
Right?

Erin Whalen: Exactly.

Victoria Volk: I think we have to be extra even more thoughtful in our texting.

Erin Whalen: Oh, yeah.

Victoria Volk: Because there aren't those verbal cues. There aren't those Right. Physical cues. Right?

Erin Whalen: Right? But there's emojis. So

Victoria Volk: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And this brings with a good question. Like, Giving bad news over text. This is something I've heard more and more about, like people hearing about someone who died in the family through text.
Or Facebook message or it's like, what do you have to say in that?

Erin Whalen: You just say that's not best practice.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. Don't do that.

Erin Whalen: That's, you know, I mean, my parents when Gina died because I was living far away from my family of origin at the time when she died. And my mom sent me a text that said, can you please call home? And I was at work. Right? So I stepped out and I called home. Right? Which I made sense to me. If she had called me and I'm in the middle of, like, you know, text, can you please call home? Which I knew? As soon as I saw it, I was like, okay. Like, it's it's time. But yeah. No. Let's not deliver bad then use over text or email or Facebook message. Let's let's just not do that. Let's not do that. Let's not do that. I mean, even even some, you know, medical professionals have to I've heard them breaking bad news over, you know, the patient portal or whatever. And it's like, oh, cool. Like, let's not do that.
Let's not do that. Or even if phone call is not, I mean, a phone call for a medical professional. Like, if you can come in and deliver that news in person. Right? But, like, clearly, if someone has died and you need to communicate that and they're not, you know, you you need to pick up the phone and call them.
Right?

Victoria Volk: That's a great point too at the portal thing because I think so many I mean, people who have been diagnosed with terminal illness and stuff, I mean, especially in the last five years or so, the client, the patient portal, it even says, like, you might see something in this that you might read something before your doctor even has an opportunity to share with you. Like, you it's almost you have to acknowledge that that's a possibility. Yes. But I think our curiosity gets the best of us and it's like who I wanna know, but it's like, do you really wanna know this way?

Erin Whalen: I know. I know. Yeah. Oh, it's it's I mean, with all the tech, right, there are the now are these extra challenges of, like, okay, how do we do this compassionately? How do we communicate on this using this modality compassionately.
It can be done, but there are certain I agree there are certain things, you know, let's not let's not send a text to say someone died.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. And even how do you do that company wide too? Like, again, organizations and

Erin Whalen: Yeah. It's tricky. And, of course, there's gonna be mistakes. Like, I think that if we allow ourselves the grace to, like, really do our best. Like, we all need to educate ourselves as first and foremost. Right? We all need to be aware, educate ourselves. But know that, like, something is better than nothing, you know, for the most part. Unless you're a total jerk. But, like, an attempt is usually better than a non attempt because I think that the isolation that can happen and the gaslighting that can happen and the, like, wait. We can't talk about this. Like, that's the message that's happening if it's just not addressed.

Victoria Volk: And that's, I think, with companies within companies and organizations, I think, that's the mental health aspect of being human. And I think that's definitely shifting and becoming more of a conversation. But it's something really that people organizations and companies just didn't even touch before. And I think COVID kinda helped propel that. But, you know, mental health, I can even I have a day job and even in my own company that I work with. They had a breakout, a session on mental health, and you know, a had a certified or trained first aid mental health first aid person come in, which I'm also trained in that as well. But I think the more like anything. Right? The more you talk it out, the more you communicate, it's it's gonna be better than not at all and and you can learn from it that way. As long as you're learning from it Yes. Do better next time. You can do it bet you can always do better next time.

Erin Whalen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Victoria Volk: So what would you say you know, one of the questions I often ask people is how would you describe yourself the for, the loss versus after? But because this has been an experience for you that has been all your life, I'll just ask what his grief, your grief taught you.

Erin Whalen: So many things. So many things, I've actually used that exact prompt before. For a program I do where we have people share and then a musician plays some music for them based on what they shared. What has grief? My grief taught me so many things. What is present for me right now? What's the quote? Tread lightly everyone's carrying a heavy burden? Right. Like, I think it's really that.
I think it's that, like, we're all navigating some kind of loss. And I think the, you know, the more I can do to to heal and to learn and to and to grow, the more I can be of service to others. And to just yeah. To just tread lightly like everyone. Everyone is grieving something or someone. And they might not not even know it. They might not even know I had no idea I was grieving my sister before she died. You know, that I was. And so I think it's just about, you know, like, I I I had my own, like, in the fall of spring of twenty twenty summer of twenty twenty. My own, like, racial awareness, like, ahaz. Right? And I remember the quote, you know, racism. Like, once once you start seeing it, it's like dust you know, in the sunlight. It's just it's everywhere. Like, you can't unsee it. And I feel that way about grief too. It's like you can't unsee once you start diving in that like, oh my gosh. Like, of course, they're grieving their divorce. Of course, they're grieving their child went off to college. Of course, they're grieving that diagnosis. Like, now I can't help but see it everywhere. And so it's helped me to hopefully be gentler and more compassionate with other people and give them more grace.

Victoria Volk: I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to share?

Erin Whalen: Thank you for having me. This was really fun.

Victoria Volk: It was fun. I mean, we're talking about grief. Greece is less fun right now.

Erin Whalen: What could be what could be fun are than grief?

Victoria Volk: And and I'm like, right? Yes. I'd say jokingly, I'll say to people, grief is my jam. It's like, that's weird.

Erin Whalen: Oh, totally. Like, I get it.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, I guess, I'm a weirdo then. Call me a weirdo.

Erin Whalen: No. But you're a good company.

Victoria Volk: I am

Erin Whalen: a weirdo.

Victoria Volk: You said We'll let our weirdo flags fly. Where can people reach you if they're in the end of life industry? Want to learn more about communication? The work that you're doing? How can people find you? When does your book release?

Erin Whalen: All the things. So I am at compassionate coaching dot org. That's my site. And you can either contact me through the site or you can send me an email. I love getting emails from people It's erin at compassion coaching dot org.
My book, right now, I'm recording in early December of twenty twenty four. My book is in the hands of an editor. So I'm thinking, early twenty twenty five hopefully. It'll be it'll be published, and I'll let you know so that you can update your show notes once it's available. But I do have I do have a a where you can enter your email to get on the wait list. So that you can you can be updated. So I'll give you that link too. So people can can get on the wait list if they wanna find out about the book.

Victoria Volk: Perfect. And is that based on your personal experience? Or is it more of like So it's a memoir or self help or kind of a blend.

Erin Whalen: I live like a micro y memoir, mini memoir of my experience with anticipatory grief for forty years. And then now that Gina has died. She passed away in twenty sixteen, so, like, what it's like to live now, now that she's died.

Victoria Volk: And what do you think is coming next for you? What do you what do you look forward to?

Erin Whalen: I look forward to so many things. I'm doing we didn't get a chance to talk about it on this podcast, but I do a really cool modality called playback theater. Related to grief, and I'm really excited to be doing some more of that locally. I'm in Arlington, Virginia. So if anyone's near the Arlington, Virginia area, the DMV, they can look me up. And I will be doing I noticed you're part of Analda, and I will be doing a webinar for them in April on communication skills, bringing to my role players. So

Victoria Volk: And that is the organization I was talking about. That wasn't really you know, communication really wasn't a huge focus of the training. So that's excellent. That's great.

Erin Whalen: I'm so excited. Then hopefully, I'll see you there.

Victoria Volk: Yes. Great. Thank you so much. I've loved this conversation. It's been a huge I I I really, really loved the tips portion because I think there was things talked about that just I'm glad that came through in our conversation.
So I'm really thankful for your time today. And I hope that this is of service to everyone who listens to it and that they share it with people that they know who may need some tips. Right? Because I I loved it. I loved it all.
Thank you so much for being my guest today.

Erin Whalen: Thank you so much for having me, Victoria.

Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.