Annie Sklaver Orenstein | Sibling Loss: Forever Ben's Sister

With over a decade of experience collecting stories globally, this week's guest and author, Annie Sklaver Orenstein, has been featured on platforms such as NPR and Time. Her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief, is an empathetic resource for surviving siblings—a group often overlooked in mourning.

Annie shares her insights about sibling relationships being some of the longest-lasting bonds in life. This perspective offers new dimensions to understanding grief, especially for those who haven't experienced sibling loss themselves. She emphasizes that siblings spend more time together during childhood than with their parents—highlighting how integral these relationships are.

Annie shares her personal story of losing her brother Ben, who was killed in Afghanistan after enlisting pre-9/11 with aspirations to serve politically and make impactful changes. The raw recounting of receiving the devastating news underscores the surreal nature of loss and its immediate emotional upheaval.

Key Takeaways:

• Sibling Relationships: Often our longest-lasting bonds, crucial yet frequently neglected in grief discussions.
• Suppressing Emotions: Surviving siblings might downplay their grief to protect grieving parents.
• Anger & Coping: Allowing oneself to feel intense emotions like anger can be vital for healing.
• Cultural Misunderstandings: Children aren't necessarily emotionally equipped despite exposure; they need support tailored to their developmental stage.
• Grief’s Unique Forms: Each person's process is distinct; societal stages don’t capture every individual experience.

Annie highlights that while society often overlooks sibling mourners, acknowledging their unique grief journey is essential. Her advocacy through writing serves as a reminder that all forms of grief deserve recognition and respect.

Ultimately, this episode sheds light on navigating complex emotions following a sibling's death while stressing self-compassion and honest emotional expression as pillars for coping with such irreplaceable losses.

RESOURCES:

• Annie's Book | Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourner's Guide to Grief
• Ep. 68 | Ken Ross

Transcript

Victoria Volk: Thank you for joining me on this episode of grieving voices. Today, I'm excited to have Author Annie Slaver Orenstein. She is a qualitative researcher, oral historian and storyteller who has spent over a decade. Collecting stories from people around the world. Her work has been featured on NBC Daily News, Comedy Central, Hotbig Tim Post, political, time, and motherly. In always a sibling, the forgotten, mourners, guide to grief, Annie uses her own story and those of others to create the empathic, thoughtful, practical resource that surviving siblings so desperately need. And I did read it, and thank you so much. For sharing your work with the world. And what was eye opening for me even just early on in the first few chat couple chapters, I was like, I never really thought about how our relationship with our sibling is the longest relationship we have. Never ever looked at it like that. So thank you for that awareness that you brought to me. Amongst many other things, according to my notes. But I really enjoyed the book and I really do feel like it's a wonderful asset for people who have lost a sibling. I personally have not lost a sibling, but I tell you just reading the book, I thought about my sister and my brother a lot, obviously, my siblings. But I'm very tight with my sister. She's nine years older than me. And, you know, it was like my second mom and has, you know, kind of been the motherly figure in my life for much of my life. So Yeah, the bond. Right? The the sibling bond. They know your childhood, like, nobody else. That's very true.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: They do and they you know, one of the things that I thought was so interested. There there are a lot of stats that I learned and that I heard that really stuck with me. And one of I guess, two, that really resonated with me and I think really like encapsulate this is that children siblings spend more time together in childhood than they do with their parents. And that more people, I believe this is a US debt, but more people grow up in a household with siblings than with fathers. And I look at my own kids, they're six and nine. They absolutely spend more time together than with me. You know? And after school, they're with us, or they're in upper school, but they're together. They share a room. And after I leave at night, they don't fall right to sleep. I wish they fall right to sleep, you know, but there's chattering and there's stuff going on and they absolutely, you know, no things about each other that I don't know. There will be times where, you know, my daughter tells me something, and I'm surprised to hear it, and my son is like, I've known that for weeks. And it's it's true. You know, it just it it's how families function. It's not like a judgment. It's just how it's how families function. It's how things work. And so regardless of, you know, an adulthood whether or not you have a good relationship or a bad relationship or, you know, as most are somewhere in the middle, that time together and that, you know, kind of pressure cooker relationship, it it impacts you. It makes you who you are in many many ways.

Victoria Volk: Yes. And that was, like, I had so many ahas when I was as I was reading and and And today, we're we're talking about Ben, and that's what your book is about is the loss of your brother. And the one question I had early on in the book is I'm a veteran. And I was in the National Guard. Your brother was in the reserves. Mhmm. And one of the questions I had early on in my notes was, what made him enlist in the first loop?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It's a great question. And I asked him that no shortage of time. He so there were a few things. One is that he had some political aspirations. He wasn't, like, necessarily sure if he would run for office, but maybe he would work for a politician or something like that. And he had a very strong kind of drive for service, and he felt like if he was going to do that, he should have a military background. And that having a military title would help him. He studied international affairs and diplomacy at at Fletcher, and he worked for the CDC and for FEMA. And he really felt like you know, having that having that credential would help him. It was when he enlisted, it was two thousand. So this was pre-nine eleven. They paid for him to go to grad school, know, they paid they paid for Fletcher, and and he got the the officer title. And then, you know, the second piece of it is that he had this idea that is I mean, you tell me, but logical ish to me that NGO, there are places that the Army can can go and can work and can help that aren't even accessible to NGOs. And the army has these incredible resources and huge amounts of money, and he felt like if he was on the inside, he could use that to go into these places that really needed help and he could help them. And so on the one hand, it was kind of a strategic move. And on the other hand, it was like, and while I'm here, I actually think I can make change from the inside and do all of this good work. And that was, you know, ultimately what he was a civil affairs officer, and that was ultimately, you know, you know, what what he was working towards was a lot of infrastructure projects. And he did on his first deployment in Africa, they were bringing clean water and building wells, and he ended up forming a nonprofit when he got home to continue that work. So it was it was really a a combination of things. But I will tell you that when, you know, on nine eleven and when those towers went down, it that was when I started to be terrified. And I thought, like, why did you just do this? You know, he had finished boot camp in so I guess it was two thousand one. He had finished boot camp in August. And then the twin towers went down. And it was very quickly. We were like, oh, this is not this is not gonna be what you thought it was.

Victoria Volk: I want you to mention the nonprofit he started because I I'm kinda wondering just even reading the book. You alluded to that it's still going. But what happened was because it was called it's called clear water initiative.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Clearwater initiative. It was absorbed eventually. After a few my parents ran it for a few years. And it was then absorbed by another clean water NGL or absorbed I I don't know what the right word is. Like, it's not like it was bought, but it was like

Victoria Volk: absolved? Yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So they're still, you know, continuing the work, but it's not run by our family anymore, it's international lifeline fund, I believe, is what it's what the larger organization is called, that has since kind of absorbed it and is running the project.

Victoria Volk: No, we haven't mentioned when he actually passed and how long it's been since you wrote the book and all of that. Can you can we kind of rewind a little bit? And then I kind of wanna re pass forward again to that mission that you initially had after he passed to give up your own dreams to pursue his and Mhmm. Kinda yeah. Let's rewind the clock and then kind of fast forward again.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Of course. So rewind the clock to when when he passed. So he was deployed to Afghanistan in July of two thousand and nine, and he was killed on October second of two thousand nine. So it was almost, I think, just shy of three months into his deployment. And he was civil affairs officer. And so they, you know, they obviously dealt a lot with civilians, community leaders. And what we've been told and I I've since spoken to men and his unit is that there was what he thought was, you know, a meeting with a local community leader and they were out on foot and that was kind of part of it was they would go out on foot and all these things because they didn't want to be threatening. They didn't want to, like, show up to a meeting with a local leader in a tank. Right? So they show up on foot. The village was pretty empty, like in hindsight, suspiciously empty. But they got to where they were supposed to be this person and walked around to the back of the building, and there was a suicide bomber just waiting for them. And my brother who was the captain of their unit and then one other soldier in the unit and their translator were all killed.

Victoria Volk: And so receiving that news?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So I was you know, it surprised me at the time and still does, but, like, just how quickly they got the news to us. You know, it was that day. My parents had always said things like, no news is good news. And in, you know, leading up to that point, any period of not hearing anything, I found really terrifying. And then I realized just how quickly there were soldiers showing up at my parent store staff, and I realized no news is good news because if there's bad news, they find you. So that night. It was a Friday. And my other brother, my brother, Sam, had a one year old, and who is now about to turn sixteen, which is wild. And I was babysitting. I was babysitting my nephew. I had just, you know, he was asleep. I had ordered dinner and I was sitting in my brother's apartment and the front door opened. And my first thought was What is the delivery guy have a key to their apartment? I think that's weird. And I kind of stood up to go walk over and see what was going on. And my brother and sister-in-law were standing there, and they did not look. Okay. And my my first thought was they must have gotten in a fight and, you know, now they're home. And and literally, my first thought was like, oh, am I still gonna get this sushi or, like, am I gonna have to leave? And, like, do I wait for the delivery guy? Like

Victoria Volk: This will

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: just you know, it it really I don't know how their faces didn't break me out more, but they just kind of sandwiched me in a hug, and my brother Sam said, it's Ben. And I said he's but he's okay. Right? And Sam said, no. Then far. And I remember sitting on their couch and kind of rocking than just saying this is not supposed to happen. This is not supposed to happen. And, you know, the kind of chain of events my dad had gotten home and there were soldiers on the on the doorstep. According to our neighbors. They had been there for a few hours, just waiting. And, you know, my parents ultimately called Sam and my my other brother. And I was living alone at the time, and so they were planning to drive into New York City to tell me because they were nervous about me getting the news, you know, alone in my apartment. And Sam said to them, she's she's sitting on my couch. I'll go tell her. So he had to come home and tell me. And my brother Ben was engaged at the time and his fiance's house was kind of in the middle of where we lived and where my parents lived. So we all met there. And then I went back home with my parents. And, you know, my it just felt like everything. Everything kind of crumbled in that moment. Right? Like, I was sitting there waiting for, like, dinner delivery. I was babysitting my nephew. And then the next thing I knew I was you know, a few hours later, I was back in my childhood home and we were figuring out who's gonna drive to Dover to meet the transport plane and who's gonna tell our grandma who's you know, mid nineties and and just the the speed of it all was really surprising to me. The speed at which they got him home, the the speed at which we got the news, like, it all happened very fast especially considering that it happened very, very far away.

Victoria Volk: I like to I not like to, but I kinda think of trauma as too much, too soon, too fast.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. You

Victoria Volk: know Mhmm. How our minds can ruminate on that. On just getting the news. Right? And and what was it? Then it's, like, later, it's, like, a complete blur. You just I you know, having been deployed, you never I mean, it's like, you know, we're we're busy. Right? We're busy doing things and doing the mission every day and to think about the family sitting at home. Right? We, you know, we have we don't know that side of it. My husband was through at the same time, so it was like we had a lot of family that was probably losing sleep and wondering if they were going to get a knock on the door, we did lose three men on our deployment and because we cleared roadside bones. That's what we did. And I was a medic. So, yeah, it's that's the other side of the coin that the family sacrificed too. The families suffer too. And so Yeah. I I just you don't go on deployment thinking you're not gonna come home, but you definitely know that's a possibility. Right? And every day Mhmm. The wire you think is today the day. And Mhmm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think about to the you know, and you were saying, like, too much, too fast. Like, I think about some of the, like, phone calls or things that that I thought were, like, really important, you know, in that moment. Like, I remember when I was done babysitting, I was going to meet up with a friend who was in town, who lived elsewhere. And I think I texted her something like, I'm I'm not gonna make it out tonight. My my brother was just killed in Afghanistan. You know? And, like, I called I was in grad school and we had, like, a Saturday workshop. And I was really nervous to call the head of my program to tell her I wasn't gonna make it the next day. You know? And, like, I just didn't even I didn't know what I was saying. I didn't know what I was doing. You know? I think there was a part of me that felt like this is the beginning and this is about to get really crazy. Like as soon as I get home as soon as I am with my parents, as soon as whatever, like, a lot of things are going to happen very quickly, and I need to just make sure no one expects anything of me, you know. In hindsight, like, I think it could have just not shown up. I could have just said, like, something came up. I'm not gonna be there or just not responded at all. You know, like but now I think about being on the receiving. Like, what would I have done if I had gotten that text from someone. What do you you know, but you're just, like, the it it felt like methodical. Like, I didn't know what it was doing, but I knew that I shouldn't stand someone up. I knew that I shouldn't just skip class. So, like, let me just let these people know, and then I can fall apart and do all of these other things. But but yeah. In hindsight, I was like, man, I, like, I knew what not. To do those few little things even though I genuinely you know, aside from that, I felt like I had no idea what was going on.

Victoria Volk: Almost as if the world stands still and then spinning around. Okay. And then your standstill, and it's like everyone else is moving. It's

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Yeah. And there was, like, no real filter for a while. Like, you know, I couldn't think straight enough to even, like, filter myself. This is a this is a terrible story, but I I volunteered to go to my grandmother who was a character. She was very mean. So Leo loved her. And everyone else went to Dover. And I get cars sick and the idea of sitting in an eleven passenger van and driving from Connecticut to Delaware and back in one day so that I could see this casket move planes was too much. Like, that I something about the idea of being in that van and knowing I would be sick the whole like, I couldn't do it. So I said, I'll I'll go tell grandma. And I told my grandma, you know, Ben was killed in Afghanistan. She said, what? Ben was killed in Afghanistan. And she kept saying what, and I kept saying it louder. And my boyfriend at the time, now my husband is, like, just standing off to the side, you know, clearly doesn't know what to do is I'm just saying this over and over. And my grandma says, again, she's in her mid nineties. And my grandma says, it should have been me. And I said, I know. Who's like that? Except, yes, she was in her mid nineties. Yeah. But we all thought she would be the next one to go, you know? And I think about that all the time that she said it should have been made. And I said, I know. And she didn't bat and I. You know? Like, she didn't think it was weird. It was probably the most honest thing I've ever said. But there was just no filter left. You know, there was no it was all I could do just to go through the motions and to to try to to try to be gentle about anything was just, I think, more than I could, more than I could do.

Victoria Volk: That brings up anger for me in your book. You devote, like, a whole chapter to it, and the role of anger. And I'm curious what you would say to this, but what what did anger reveal to you about your grief?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think a lot of times anger was like the proof that I was not okay. You know, I'm an emotional person. I'd been an emotional person. I'm an anxious person. I'm not an angry person. Anchor was was new for me. And it and that made it really scary because you know, if I was feeling anxious or nervous, okay, I felt this before. I was feeling stat or lonely. Okay. I felt this before, but the anger. You know, everything else was a heightened emotion, the anger felt like a new emotion, scary emotion. And I couldn't say, I I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know you know, how to channel it or or where to put it. And so I it made me feel very out of control and made me feel like I can't like, pretend I'm okay because this is, like, not okay. And it would be very spud in, you know, as as anger can be.
And I just didn't I didn't expect it to be as intense as it was. I didn't think it would be as hard to control as it was. And it was, you know, a part of grief that I didn't know what to do with, really. And my brother was so not an angry person. He was very generous and loving and, like, a gentle giant, you know. And so anger wasn't, you know, wasn't in a motion I had really seen him demonstrate maybe ever. Even when I was like, I'm eight years younger, I spent plenty of time bothering him when he was in high school and annoying him. And he never got mad at me. He never got angry. And so it felt, you know, it felt bad. It felt kind of out of control, but it also felt like, out of character for me and out of character for him, you know? Like, I felt like he wouldn't be this way. He wouldn't be like this. Now, of course, he would. If someone else, you know, in our family had died instead of him, I'm sure he would have been just as angry as the rest of us. But it it felt very, like, a very unknown emotion to me. And so I I found it very, like, disconcerting and and kind of frightening.

Victoria Volk: What did you find that worked or helped you kind of soften the edges of that anger?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Time helped, but that's, like, the worst possible answer. It's, you know, one of the things that we have no control over. Letting myself be angry helped. You know, not just trying to sweep it under the rug, not trying to suppress it or, you know, ignore it. But, like, letting myself feel really pissed off. You know, I tell the story in the book of, like, breaking all of these dishes in my apartment. I tried that. It didn't help as as much as I wanted. But there were definitely, like, yelling, screaming, like, yelling into a pillow, and just it was like it was like I had to get it out of my body in some way. And so crying yelling, not trying to you know, I would try to, like, hold it in and keep it together and be, you know, normal, but I thought it was normal. Even if I was just like home alone, which was so unnecessary. You know, if you can't fall apart when you're home alone, like, you have to be you have to let yourself do that. So I think, you know, when I let myself, like, yeah, I'm really angry. I am feeling really angry right now. And I'm just going to let myself feel really angry right now. And you know, maybe I'd go for a walk, maybe I'd scream into my pillow and eat nachos and watch arrested development, you know. But sometimes it was that, like, laughing would help, you know, I watched arrested development a lot. But I think, ultimately, it was just letting myself be angry and not trying to deny that. Was kind of ultimately, like, the thing that helped me deal with it the most.

Victoria Volk: Before Ben's passing and growing up, what had been the conversation around grief and death and dying and you know, was it something that was openly talked about in your home or, you know, where you could express things and was it yeah. What what were the beliefs and the things that were kinda shared about grief and death and dying as you grew up.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. It was talked about, but I also think we were exceptionally fortunate. You know, my four grandparents all lived into their nineties. You know, the my my grandpa maybe my grandpa was eighty nine or ninety, but everyone else was mid nineties. But there were two the two years I was in grad school, I lost two grandparents, one uncle, and my brother. So it was kind of all at once. But, like, you know, I remember the first big loss was when my grandfather died, and that was in seventh grade. And, you know, I'm sure I'm sure we didn't see all of the crying. I'm sure we didn't see all of the emotion. But, like, I I my parents ex you know, they expressed emotion. They expressed grief. I remember in freshman year of high school, a dear friend of mine whose mom had grown up with my dad, and that was how I knew her. And her mom passed away. She had been stick with cancer for for a while. And I remember getting home from volleyball practice, and my dad was sitting on the front porch crying. And he told me, you know. And so it wasn't it wasn't a tabbing subject, but at the same time, we didn't lose that many people, you know. And we didn't lose them other than, you know, Laura, my friend's mom, you know, my grandparents have lived very long, full lives, and it's different, you know, to bury someone in their nineties versus someone in their thirties. And so by the time Ben died, you know, I had lost one friend and three of my grandparents. So grief existed. It was around, but but it was different. It was a different kind of grief than this was.

Victoria Volk: Have you experienced great experiences since been past and since the book has been written and published and what have and what has been your approach differently now in those experience. If you've had them, I I don't wanna assume you did. But

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. I mean, because my grandmother died shortly after Ben just about two months later.

Victoria Volk: One said it should've been me.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. And, you know, I think in that case, we were all still so deep in grief that it it didn't feel distinct in its in its own way. And I have experienced a while since then. I have a good friend whose sister who I knew died. And and there have been some other losses, but none, fortunately, like none in my immediate family or or anything that close. I think I've learned a lot about supporting other people who are grieving and, you know, things to say and not to say and to just show up. But I I yeah. Fortunately, there has not been a loss at a cyclical incident. Howard Bauchner:

Victoria Volk: A large theme about your book is the lack of attention that's given to the siblings after a sibling passes. And so I'd like you to share what that experience was for you, things that maybe were unhelpful that people said to you. Just advice or not even advice, but just reassurances and things that you would like to share with other siblings who may listen to this who have lost a sibling.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. Siblings are known as forgotten mourners. And when I read that, you know, in in some of the kind of academic literature and grief literature, I had this moment of, like, we don't we all know this. Like, what are we gonna do about it? We're like, we're just referencing it and passing, you know, and I even asked some grief experts about it. And they were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what they did. And it's like, Why why didn't anyone tell me this, you know? Why didn't I know? And I think ultimately what it is is like people ask about other people and they don't ask about you. So but you are the in. Right? So you're the one that people can ask about how your parents are doing. And, you know, maybe how if it's the sibling was an adult and was partnered, you know, how is the partner doing or how are the children doing? And I think that's fine. There's nothing wrong with, you know, asking me how my parents are doing. The problem is that people would ask how your parents are doing and they don't ask how you're doing. So it's not that, you know, you shouldn't ask how someone's parents are doing. It's just first ask me how I'm doing. Then asks me how my parents are doing. Right? It's not either or. But I'm not just the messenger. People will often ask the sibling questions that they would not ask a parent, you know, details on the cause of death, or things like that, you know, where a sibling might feel like a kind of a safe ally or, you know, someone who knows all of the dirty details, but isn't the grieving parent so you can ask them. And all of those things are just I mean, you just shouldn't ask. Right? If there's a question that you wouldn't ask the parent don't ask the sibling. If you wouldn't ask the spouse, don't ask the sibling. Don't put them in that position. Right? If someone wants to tell you, they'll tell you. Or the advice I like to give is just like, do, like, a normal person does and just Google it. Right? Like, I have tried to Google people's cause of death before. I am a very curious person. I'm a researcher. I have questions exactly. We all do it. Just just Google my brother. Right?

Victoria Volk: If you put more friends

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly. Like, just do a little bit of Internet talking, and you might not you probably won't find out all the boring details, but you're gonna get a pretty good idea. And I think people, you know, they they ask the sibling as if the sibling is fine, but also the sibling has this insider knowledge. So, like, let's get the info. And, you know, I think siblings also in many cases and this is not a dig, but I think siblings in many cases kind of diminish intentionally diminish their own grief. Because you are watching your parents, you know, completely fall apart, your parents have just lost a child. They are obviously not okay. Seeing them you know, seeing them grieve can be frightening, especially for, you know, younger people if you, you know, lose a sibling in childhood, you know, folks I've talked to who lost a sibling in childhood or early adolescence. Describe their parents' grief as being frightening. And and so if you see your parents struggling that much, the last thing you wanna do is make it worse. You don't want to make them worried. You don't want to, you know, you don't want to be a problem. They have enough on their plate. They're dealing with enough. So you try to be as easy as you possibly can. I think, especially with children, again, that, like, children early adolescence goes to, like, I'm gonna be as easy as I can, so that no one has to worry about me, and I can just be the easy child. And you know, people put a lot of pressure on themselves to be that perfect surviving child and to live for for, you know, both of them and to never do anything wrong and never cause their parents any pain because they have seen their parent insignificant amount of pain and they don't want to cause that. And I think in adult sibling loss, it looks more like just taking care of everything and not putting anything on your parents. Never wanting to be a burden. Never wanting to seem like you aren't okay because you want them to believe that you and everything will be okay? And sometimes we're very convincing. You know, sometimes if you do that enough and you do that for long enough, you can trick yourself into thinking that you're fine. And, you know, the thing that I say a lot in the book, maybe too much. I wondered about this when I was reading the audiobook. If it gets better too much, is you can't outrun Greek.
You might do a really good job, acting like you're fine, and then five, ten years later, everyone else can talk about your sibling and laugh and reminisce and you can't say they're gay without crying. You know, you still feel raw, like like it was, you know, a month after they died. And that's what it feels like, or it it manifest in other ways in, you know, on in harmful, like, self coping skills in in other ways that it manifests. And I think, ultimately, the thing that's most difficult is, like, yes, you do wanna try to be kind of easy for your parents and you do want to, you know, no, they can't handle your pain right now and they can't take it on and they can't support you the way that you want to be supported. All of those things are true, but you still need to try and support somewhere. And you still need to find an outlet. And it's not gonna be your parents because they can't help you. And they can't be there for you in the way that you need someone to be there for you. But you have to find some way to face it and to deal with it. And conversely, you're not really in a position to be your parents. Person or your parents best support. You know, you can support them in some ways, but, you know, there's there's a line where they can't lean on you for everything because you do need to address your own grief and loss. And you can't do that if you are the primary, you know, emotional caretaker of of your your parent. And so it's a really difficult position because the people who are most affected and the people who know them the best and are probably grieving the most. Can't be each other's emotional support in every way, but you can sit together and you can cry together and you can talk about them together. You know, you just can't you don't have enough to give, you know. You you don't have enough left to give to really be that for someone else, but you can still be together and you can still be experiencing it and grieving it together without having that kind of without trying to, like, put it on someone.

Victoria Volk: One of the as I was reading, like, I I read the book from the lens of as a child engraver who lost my father when I was eight. And so when you were talking about just the things what you were just saying, and there you we actually this is only the second time I came across I heard this word. Paratification. And what kind of Yeah. Yeah. Back to that. But there's so many parallels between what I experience as a child grieving and what you described as a sibling grieving in the context of the relationship with the parents. And when one parent dies and the other is living, like there's so many parallels of what that child experiences and what how you described it as a sibling with sibling loss. So I just wanna say, like, even if you haven't lost a sibling, this book can bring up awarenesses and things for you that may not that you that kind of surprised you. So that was surprising to me how similar you described that and what my experience was. And you've mentioned this word parentification. Again, only second time I've heard this or seen this word, and it's been, like, within a short amount of time. So I was, like, I've never heard this word. I've been doing I've been working with Grievers for, like, over four years. I've I you know, certified grief specialist, I've never heard this term. I'm like, so, but it's when children are pushed into the parent role to be when it's not developmentally appropriate, And you have a line in your book that says, I can't take on your grief right now. And it's only

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: that was a line from an interview. And this woman was saying that she you know, her mom was really relying on her calling her all hours the day or night whenever she is upset to talk to her and but she really had to set some boundaries. And I was fascinated by this because I was like, what did you say? I mean, admittedly, basically, my mom did not put that in my put me in that position, but I guarantee you. If she had, I would have latched on hook line and thinker. I would have answered every phone call. It would have completely drained me. But I would not have known how to push back or set a boundary. And I asked this woman at, oh, what did you say to her? And she was so it was like it came it seemed like it came so naturally to her. She said, I just told her I can't take on your grief right now. And I remember scribbling it onto an index card, you know, and like highlighting it. Like, this means to go in This has a home in the book verbatim, you know, and it just yeah, I can't take on your grief right now.

Victoria Volk: If only, if right? You know, and being a highly sensitive person, I'm like you, you know, deep feeler, helpers, healers, like, this is when you are and this is a thing, like, this is how, like, co dependency kind of, takes root and then just manifest. Right? In in in the dynamics of relationships when you have either a parent that had passed or, like, a sibling and then the relationship with the parent. Like, this is how this can, like, just kind of, really shift the dynamics of a relationship. You know? It Mhmm. It rocks everything. It, like, this rug is swept from underneath and all that you knew is no more. It completely changes everything and sometimes it brings out characteristics and things and people that because they don't know what to do with what they're feeling, you know?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It's like Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: It's gotta do something with it. Well, I'll just call my child and my child can be my therapist, you know.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right. And my child understands and my child, you know, all of these things that are, you know I mean, probably not really true, but, like, you know, your child knew this person. They're gonna answer your call. They're, you know it just they're gonna make you feel wanted or needed. Maybe, you know, I don't know. But, yeah, it came up a lot. It came up in a lot of different people's experiences. This, you know, just the authentication. You know, I think it's the best word for it. It's just making, putting the child into a role that is really developmentally appropriate for an adult and for a parent and not at all for a child. I think there's also This is kind of related but broader. I think there's this, like, larger cultural sentiment. They're like, a lot of kids are growing up so fast and blah blah blah. But they're not, you know, developmentally, biologically, they're not. And so they're exposed to more. They might know more. That doesn't mean they're equipped to handle it or that they're equipped to handle these emotions. You know, our brains are not developing at a different speed. There's just more input into it. And so it's, I think, easy to think, to kind of fall into a trap of thinking that your child is an adult because they know big words and they can pair it back these things that they've seen on TikTok. But it doesn't mean that their brain can actually understand or process or that you're you know, that that they are emotionally prepared and developed and not to handle that stuff and and to handle the aftermath of it. Howard Bauchner:

Victoria Volk: I remind my kids all the time. Your frontal lobe is not developed until you're like twenty five. So just kinda listen to me sometimes. I've been around the block longer than you. One thing I wanna get to and I actually just when I was reading this, I was like, I really wanna talk about this. And then I just recently saw one of your Instagram. You had done an interview and you talked about this very thing. And of course, I saw the title and I had to click on it and listen. But you were talking about the stages of grief. So in your book, it's almost as if, like, like, you almost believed them. You believed in these things as a grief. Mhmm. And then fast forward to that instant that just recently listened to an interview. It's like, oh, no. She doesn't. There's something else here. And so I actually had Ken Ross on my podcast, Elizabeth Kupala Ross's son.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Okay.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. And but I wanna from your perspective, in your grief story, and what you were kind of experiencing at the time when you were writing the book? Because there was actually a little bit of a delay. Wasn't that because there was it seemed like it was two years, like, towards the end. I can't remember which chapter it was. It was, like, I'm thirteen years out. Yeah. But you're actually fifteen years out.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I'm fifteen years. So the book I finished the book at this point. I submitted the manuscript a year and a half ago.

Victoria Volk: Oh.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Because there was, like, a year where it was in production. And then and I was writing it for about after it sold until it was due you know, I was probably writing it for a year and a half and then it was in production for a year and a half and I started it even, you know, before I had told it. So it was really written over the course of a few years. I think I believed So, like, taking a step back, I think the context that we all miss is that the stages of grief were developed in the context of death and dying, not for griefers, but for the person who is dying. Right? No one ever explained that to me. I thought it was how we agreed. And it's not. It it was never meant to be that. Right? And so I thought, okay, I go I'm supposed to go through these stages. And so if I'm not going through the stages or if I'm going through the stages out of order or whatever I'm doing this wrong, there was a lot of times where I thought I was doing it wrong. And I didn't understand even really until I was doing the research for the book. I mean, when I was researching the book was a, I so I knew by the time I was writing the book, I knew that, like, there was something off with either me or the stages of grief because we didn't really work together. And I kind of had chalked it up to, like, well, maybe the stages of grief are, like, true for some people, but maybe they're just not universal. And then when I was writing it, it was when I learned that no, actually, they weren't meant for grievers at all in the first place. So, you know, of course not, but also that now there's, you know, a a lot of a lot of people who think that it's actually harmful to say that they're at these stages of agreement or the exact reason that I experience, which is that it makes people feel like they're doing it wrong or that, you know, there's only one way to grieve or something like that, which there just isn't. And I think, you know, in the book, I spell out the in in a lot of detail, there are these fifteen different, you know, known and acknowledged types of grief. And for me, you know, part of why I did that, everything in the book was something that, like, I found helpful for myself personally. And I think In the case of those types of grief, I found that a lot more helpful than the stages of grief because there was a lot more room for interpretation. There's a lot more kind of possible combinations and and ways to breathe and ways to change And to me, not only did those resonate a lot more with my own experience, but they also kind of helped debunk this myth that there is one way to grieve, and it is to go through these five stages. You know, because if there are fifteen different types of grief that you can experience in combination with each other and really an unlimited number of combinations with each other, then how could there be these five stages that everyone goes through. And and I felt like that looking at the types of group grief was really more helpful for reflecting on your own experience and giving everyone that kind of weight and validation that they're griefs that that they're not grieving wrong, but there is no wrong weight to grieve. There are perhaps harmful, you know, self harm ways to grieve and destructive ways to grieve. But it's all Greek. You know, it's not it's not wrong.

Victoria Volk: Well, because when I was reading those fifteen, I was like, wow, this is a lot. And I I resonated with some, you know, more than others. And I just thought, you know what, though, I never even if someone would have shared those with me years ago. That is like, do you think we're looking for a label to identify with? Like, in our grief? Like, we're just looking, where do I belong? And where does my grief fit in the grand scheme of grief. But at the end of the day, none of those are helpful anyway, either because Mhmm. They're not moving you through your grief. They're not helping you process your grief. It's just a way of the type of grief. So at the end grieve is grief. Yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Greece is great. I think the label is helpful because it makes you feel like you're not alone and you're not I don't want to use the word crazy, but like, you are not you're not doing it wrong, you're not alone. Right? If if there are enough people who've experienced this thing, that they've come up with a name for it. Then I'm not the only one who has ever felt this way. And I think it's that. It's knowing that you are not alone, knowing that you are not losing your mind, knowing that you are not you know, reacting in a way that no one has ever reacted before or that you're dover reacting or underreacting or whatever. I think the thing about a label is if there's a label on something, then you are not the only one who has ever experienced this. There have been enough people who have experienced this that someone gave it a name, and that can be really validating. So, you know, and I think in some ways, it can help you figure out how to move through it because maybe you can figure out what the what the thing is to work on. But maybe then you work on it and you fall into one of the you know, like, it's it's it's all gonna be a lifelong process. It's not it's never gonna be, like, fixed. But I do think especially for siblings who feel like their loss and their grief has been ignored and diminished to begin with. It's really easy to feel like you're overreacting or you're doing this wrong or you're not really supposed to be grieving or any of these other things. And so the label gives validation to the emotions you're feeling even if it might not you know, give you a a path or like a step by step plan to follow, it makes you feel less alone and it makes you feel less like you've lost control of your mind.

Victoria Volk: Can we talk about forgiveness? Yes. Okay. So I am curious if you in your research ever heard of the book, the grief recovery handbook?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. Oh. Or maybe I've heard of it, but I don't think I've read it.

Victoria Volk: K. Well, this is me going through the handbook. You know, I'm like a researcher too. Right? Like, I can do this myself. I can go through this process myself. Yeah. No. I became certified group specialist out as I went after I realized I couldn't do it myself. But I wanna talk about forgiveness because I'm curious if that has shifted for you a little bit since the book has been out. Because when you talked about it in your book, it was it was as if it was it's like a gift you give somebody else. But what I've learned is that forgiveness as a gift I give myself. Mhmm. So I'm curious how if that's shifted for you or if maybe that's a perspective that you hadn't considered before?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I don't think I struggled with forgiveness as much as a lot of the people that I interviewed and spoke with. You know, there were there were people for whom forgiveness, you know, often because of the cause of death or, you know, the things that led up to it. Forgiveness was a big ask. And forgiveness was something where hearing their story I I can't help but always kind of imagine myself in that position. And there were some stories where I thought I don't I don't know if I would have gone to forgiveness or could have gone to forgiveness. And so I was but I found myself being extremely you know, I found the forgiveness that people gave their loved ones to be extremely admirable. You know? And I would think I don't know if I could have forgiven, but the fact that you did is incredible to me and it feels like such a gift. And I think, yes, it's a gift to the other person, but This is a terrible thing to say, but if you've read the book, you know, I I again have very little filter. They don't need your forgiveness because they're dead. Right? And I do think that even when people are dead, they're around us and their spirits are around us and we can feel their presence. But I think that by the time you're a spirit that's around us, you also kind of don't need our forgiveness anymore. Like, hopefully, they know what the purpose was, and they know the greater meaning, and they probably look at us and think, like, you'll get it one day. You know? And so I do I think forgiveness is for us. I don't think forgiveness is for them. You know, I don't think that that my brother, wherever he is, is losing sleep or, you know, worried that we're not gonna forgive him. I think he sees a much bigger picture than we do, but I think it's easy for us to loosely over giving that forgiveness. So I do think that forgiveness is when it comes to grief, you know, forgiveness and life, something different. But when it comes to forgiving someone who has died, I think it is a gift that we give ourselves, not something that we do on their behalf.

Victoria Volk: Well, and the thing is is you're never gonna get an apology. Right? They're gone?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. You're never gonna get an apology, and they're never gonna be, like, thank you so much for forgiving me.

Victoria Volk: Exactly. So you're sitting

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: out, like,

Victoria Volk: he'll jail. You're stuck in jail until yep. Can do that for yourself. Yeah. And that's why it is yeah. So in this book is what it says, forgiveness is giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I like that. Can I hang up? Any memorized letter yesterday?

Victoria Volk: Any memorized resentment of past events will limit and restrict our ability to participate fully in life. Mhmm. And Mhmm. Forgiveness is an action. It's not a feeling.
And it is possible. I've

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: done it. Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: You know?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Victoria Volk: Read this book. Definitely.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I will.

Victoria Volk: It I think it will give you and then reach out to me and let me know what your thoughts are. I'm I'm really curious.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well,

Victoria Volk: one of the interesting things I found in your book to key points that I wanna bring up is You talk about one of the hardest things about sibling loss is accepting that the departed sibling existed in only one phase or part of the surviving sibling's life. And It's like as if, like, you know that it's like they're frozen in time in this phase of your life and all the phases that are to come, they're not a part of it and how they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And can fill the gaps. And that struck a chord with me because, you know, I'm nine years younger than my sister, and she's already filling the gaps for me for many years. Like, you know, because she obviously remembers more than I do about certain things. And I loved how you were called Squaver kitten. You know, because, you know, my sister is Veronica, and I'm Victoria, and she's she's always been big v and I'm little v. So we kinda have that. But yeah. And I would like you to speak to that just that how that's kind of a consistent theme that you saw in the research that you were doing and it may be your own experience. Howard Bauchner:

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. You know, I think going back to, you know, how we started this conversation and talking about siblings as our longest relationship. You know, they really biologically, they really should be our longest shared relationship. And that the your siblings, you know, are part of your life before any kind of adult partnership ornaments. And they continue in your life past the death of your parents. Traditionally. Right? Typically. And so you just they're just always there. You always expect them to be there. Right? And you always expect, you know, you said your sister is nine years older than you. And so your sister should always be nine years older than you because she has always been nine years older than him. My brother was eight years older than me. So I'm now older than him.
Which is not the way the world should work. Right? Is

Victoria Volk: Wanting to skip your birthday in the book?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Yes. It's like, you know, that Internet mean. Like, the math doesn't matter. Like, my brother is eight years older than me, but I am older than him. Mhmm. And so you just expect that they will always be there because they always have been there and because that's the birth order and that's how that works. And so it's hard to imagine there's there's I write about this in the book that there's, like, a link between the part of our brain that we use for imagination and the part of our brain that we use for memory. So it's hard to imagine something that, you don't have a memory of it and and kind of vice versa. They're they're connected. And so I don't have, you know, I didn't have a memory of a world that he didn't exist in. And so I couldn't imagine a world that he didn't exist in. It didn't logically make sense to me. Because of the way our brains are wired, you know, there's a very clear reason why that connection wasn't made. And, you know, for me, I just always assumed my kids would know their uncles. And that, you know, my brother always wanted kids. I I assumed he would be a dad. Right? I didn't think I would hit those milestones. Without him present, I didn't think I would hit milestones that he never did. And it it really forces you to rewire, to literally rewire the synapses in your brain to understand the world in a different way. And siblings create their identities, you know, compared to and in opposition to each other. And so they're such a central figure in our identity development and in who we are and then they're gone. And it's really hard to to center yourself again and just to figure out how everything now fits together with that key piece that's missing. Again, even if it's a bad relationship. Maybe your whole identity development has been based on the fact that no matter what you do not want to be like your sister, then you do everything different than your sister. Your sister is still a lynchpin in that identity development. So when she's gone, when you're not anchoring yourself on making sure you're different than her, then who are you, and what do you do? You know, it's hard to even imagine it. Because it's just such an unknown world. And getting older than that is a real you know, I don't know I don't know if you were at that point with the loss of your father, but I've heard the same thing from people who've lost a parent that becoming older than your parent can feel very disorienting. You know?

Victoria Volk: It was actually, I'm just I'm yeah. He died when he was forty four. Mhmm. And for me like, turning forty four for me, I couldn't experience that year without knowing or feeling like now imagine if I was given six months to live. You know what I mean? Like, putting myself in those shoes and imagining myself like my father and his experience and and he actually lived, like, sixteen months. But yeah. In turning forty five and being older. Yeah. It's it's those those dates. Right? Those milestones that they don't stop even thirty plus years out. They don't stop. Mhmm. And so this brings me it's a good segue into because we're kinda getting short on time, but I wanna bring this up because I think it's so important. It's a huge undercurrent in your book is music. Mhmm. How important music was to bend? How important it had been to your healing in through the throughout the book? You song lyrics have been huge. And then they get to the end of the book and you mention, and I was like, what? Indigo girls was his favorite band. I was Mhmm. Mhmm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: What? Mhmm. I You were in the military. That has to be rare. Right? That there are soldiers

Victoria Volk: Yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Favorite band to be Indigo girls.

Victoria Volk: I actually so I actually texted my a girlfriend of mine, your book, and I said I just finished this. And she just said at the end that her you know, that Indigo Girls was her brother's favorite band, and I just I thought of her because she and I have spent spent so much time in high school even after. Like, we're still friends, you know, driving cruising down the road, seeing it. Like, I had the Elko part, she had the Sipreno, like, I've seen them in concert. Like, I think I even have a gut guitar pick that they threw out. Yeah. So I was like, what? Like, I don't know. Like, he would have been like I like, I feel like he's like a kindred spirit some way. Just how you described him and talked about him and through the music and all that.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Can I tell you a really good Indigo Girl story that happened after the book?

Victoria Volk: Yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So Indigo Girls were coming to New Haven, which is where I live. And this was last August or September, just about a year ago. And I bought tickets to go with three of my girlfriends. And one of the first concerts I had been to was Indigo Girls in New Haven, after this concert venue called The Palace. So It's approaching, I get the edits back from the publisher and they are due the same day as the Indigo World concert. So now the Indigo World concert takes on even more weight because now I'm like, okay, I need to hit send on this. Before the concert. And this is gonna be our celebratory concert. So I get to edits in, you know, everyone's excited. My girlfriend's all everyone's excited. And I'm telling them about this first Indigo Girls concert I went to, which my brother Sam was also at. We all we all went through Indigo Girls faces. And and I was telling them about the policy at her, and I I was like, I get I don't think it even exists anymore. And we walk into this venue. And I was like, this place looks like the Palace, and I Google it, and it is the Palace Theater, just new management and they changed the name. So now I realized I'm at the same you know, venue where it's one of my first concerts, Indigo growth, all of these things. And we're stand I was like, I'm gonna get something from the merch table. We're standing in line with the merch table, and I say to my friend, Dana, I wish there was something that was, like, a piece of merch that was like symbolic of finishing the book and, you know, getting the manuscript in. And she said, you mean like that t shirt that has a bookcase on it? And their swag was like band book and it was like the t shirt had these bookshelves on it and the front pocket looked like a library, hard pocket. So I get so I get the tshirt, walk in the whole set is these oversized bookshelves with books on it. And then they start playing and they start playing one of the songs that I have in their book that starts with that's a newer song. I hadn't heard it before, but it the first line of the song is oh, Annie. I am sorry for your grief. So they start playing that song, which is kind of a, like, b side, like, deep track. Right? I'm crying. And I said to my friends, if they do power of two next, I I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm I'm probably gonna faint. Churna, next step they pray the power of two. And I am just balling, you know. And it was just it was, like, I you know what I'm talking about, this is the book that, like, I I was a bit obtuse to signs for a while. I was not really open to them. And eventually, once I was, I kind of realized that my brother had been, like, beating me over the head with them. And after power of two, my friend was like, so can we all agree that this was a sign? I said, yes. Yes. I feel like he's here. And it was just, like, amazing moment where I, you know, I felt like he was at the concert with us. I felt like he was at the concert with us and I felt like he kept being like, Annie, I'm here. I'm still here. Don't write this off. I know you're gonna write this off. Let me just give you a little bit more proof. This is me. You know, it looks like again and again and again and it was just amazing. It was just it was an incredible experience and it felt like very much a culmination of of everything I had been working on and, you know, everything that he had loved. And, yeah, it was just incredible.

Victoria Volk: I have chill bumps and chill bumps. It truth bumps, I'll say. Yeah. If that's not a sign, holy

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: grail. Exactly. By the end of

Victoria Volk: In the book, you talked about with the little blue flowers, and I was like, whoa. That's that's pretty good sign. You'll just have to read the book my friends to read that one, but it you talk I I'm glad you went there about the continuing bonds because, you know, depending on how you grow up and what your beliefs are and, you know, maybe as a child, you weren't taught that, hey, you can still talk to your loved one. You can still talk to your sibling. You can still talk to your dad or your mom or whomever passed away or your childhood friend, you know, we aren't or your pet even. Right? Like, you children, you know, they completely they totally bond with their pets. We just aren't taught that that that bond can continue. You know, I think as adults, we kind of pass our beliefs, whatever they are onto our kids. And so we don't believe that. We believe when you die, you just die, you go with the grave, and there's that's all that there is. Then, of course, that's what children will believe. And you you don't rule that continuing bonds is is possible, and that can be really healing for people.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. I think growing up, I'm Jewish, and growing up, you know, I kind of was taught or believe that there's a heaven, but there's not a hell. Like, Jews don't have a hell. And so I thought there was a heaven that everyone went to, but I didn't think there was, like, any kind of connection between life on earth and whatever's going on in heaven. So, like, when my grandfather died, when when people died, I imagined them, like, off in heaven, hanging out together, having a blast. But not that there was a back and forth or that there was a connection. And I I think I, you know, obviously, I eventually got there, but it was like I was kinda way there, you know, but I didn't really I didn't really think there was a relationship between the two so much, but now now I do.

Victoria Volk: Well, you need to talk about how that came about in the book too, and so people just have to read the book to find out. So just keep plugging the book in that way. But yeah. I and there's like, there's so much more I could talk about. But I know you have to get going, but I just wanna thank you for this work that you put out in the world. And again, like, even if you haven't lost a sibling, if you've lost somebody else in your life, there's something you can glean from this book. Again, I have more things that we could talk about, but I want you to give you an opportunity if you want to share something that you don't feel you got to, that you feel is important.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I'd love to this conversation and all of your questions, and I think You're the only I think the biggest message is just that it's okay to grieve. It's okay to grieve your sibling. You know? It makes sense. That you're grieving your sibling. And, you know, I want people to know that they are allowed to that they are that they don't need to be stomach, and they don't need to be okay. And it's, you know, it's okay to also breathe. And Yeah. I think that's the takeaway.

Victoria Volk: What comes to my mind, I get this visual of, like, you know, when you kinda shrink down and you get small because the grief around you of other people is so big and you kinda just make yourself small. And it's almost like you just kinda go like this. Just make room for it.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Make room Yes. Grieve. Yes. Absolutely.

Victoria Volk: Where can people find you? Find your book? Can they connect with you all the things? I'll put the links in the show notes, but I'll have you share that as well.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So they can find the book, always the sibling, anywhere folks are sold. And you can find me on Instagram at annie Squaver, Ornstein, my name, or annie sorenstein dot com. Yeah.

Victoria Volk: What are you working on now?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I don't know. I really want to write something else and I'm trying to figure out what comes next. What's the next idea? I have too many of them or perhaps not just not the right one. I don't know. But working on figuring out what comes next.

Victoria Volk: I love that. I I have another I wrote a book too and a self-published though, and it's I know I have another book in me, but it's it hasn't like like just landed. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Wake up one

Victoria Volk: day and you have a book title. I was like, oh, I got a book title.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And this one, you know, people ask, like, how was I able to do it? Because I have a full time job in kids. And it was like, well, I but I had to like, I I don't know how I did it. I just knew I had to do it, and I I need that. I need to figure out, you know, what's what's the next one that I have to write. And I'm I'm excited to figure that out.

Victoria Volk: You made it a priority. And that's the difference between I mean, everybody has twenty four hours in the day. It's what you prioritize in those twenty four hours. I got up before five thirty every morning. That was just my writing. Exactly. Because that was happening to me. You make time for what's important.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. And I need to find that next thing that matters that much because that's also when I would write my book, but it takes a lot for me to get up early. I hate it. I kept waiting to start enjoying it or to become a morning person and who'd get to happen. But clearly, if there's a good enough reason, I will do it. So I am I am exploring possible reason to wake up early.

Victoria Volk: Well, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this book.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. Yeah. Anytime we have to be.

Victoria Volk: Thank you again. Well, stay connected online. I'm sure. So

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Alright. Sounds good.

Victoria Volk: Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.