Patti shares her grieving voice on being a widow and how, despite moving on with life, her heart still grieves the loss of her first husband.
However, grief didn't start for her there, and she touches on grief with the living, and later, a miscarriage, and her and her current husband's shared experience with IVF.
Patti also shares what's helped her get through the hard days and how the Grief Recovery Method has helped her navigate her losses and be a supportive heart with ears for others.
Loss and grief accumulate throughout life. If Patti's stories resonate with you, you can find her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/journey2babyherr2/
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you'd like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to victoria@theunleashedheart.com.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
Would you like to join the mission of Grieving Voices in normalizing grief and supporting hurting hearts everywhere? Become a supporter of the show HERE.
Patti shares her grieving voice on being a widow and how, despite moving on with life, her heart still grieves the loss of her first husband.
However, grief didn't start for her there, and she touches on grief with the living, and later, a miscarriage, and her and her current husband's shared experience with IVF.
Patti also shares what's helped her get through the hard days and how the Grief Recovery Method has helped her navigate her losses and be a supportive heart with ears for others.
Loss and grief accumulate throughout life. If Patti's stories resonate with you, you can find her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/journey2babyherr2/
______
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you'd like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to victoria@theunleashedheart.com.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
______
WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
Would you like to join the mission of Grieving Voices in normalizing grief and supporting hurting hearts everywhere? Become a supporter of the show HERE.
Victoria Volk 1:35
Hey, everybody, thanks for returning to the podcast this week, I have a very special guest. Patty. She was one of the participants in my very first grief recovery method program group program. And she's going to be sharing her grieving voice with you today. Patty, want to say hi,
Patti 2:00
hi, everyone. I've never done this before. So
Victoria Volk 2:04
no, this will be great. Just a conversation. Let's start with what brought you to grief recovery. We'll start there.
Patti 2:14
So I've had a lot of grief in my life. And I try not to let it well it It made me of who I am today. But I try not to let it lead my life. But I realized that I needed to work on some things. And I heard about this and messaged you about it and asked some questions. And I thought I might as well just give this a try. But it turned out to be something completely opposite of what I thought it was going to be. I thought I was going to be doing something about my husband and it turned out not to be that it turned out to be someone living in my life.
Victoria Volk 2:48
And when you how had you tried other things before to help process your grief?
Patti 2:54
I was kind of in the mood of I didn't want to talk to a stranger like a counselor about someone about my husband who they didn't even know. And so to me, I just kind of push that all the way. I guess so. No, I haven't tried anything else.
Victoria Volk 3:13
Okay, so tell what would you say has been or was the hardest thing or has been the hardest thing about the loss of your husband because this this was actually your your first husband? Yep. And you've since remarried and a beautiful boy and another on the way and you're happy now with you know great relationship share with our listeners how that transition from that loss and and what you experienced during that time. And in what could have been more helpful to you or what was helpful to you just kind of share a little bit more about that loss and then in the transition from that loss into where you are now in your relationship with your new husband.
Patti 4:13
So it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to go through. Um, I we hadn't been married that long, a year and a half I think it was and just it was so tragic and fast. Like it was very unexpected. So he was only 32 years old and it was a four wheeler accident at work. So it was very unexpected. But I clung on to people that wanted to be around me and I kind of learned who my true friends were. Some people I lost friendships over this and it's weird that you would think like I didn't cause him you know his death or anything but I did lose friendships. family dynamics changed as far as his family and me um, and then just Just me as a person, I changed it. I think people say like, it kills a little bit of you. And I wouldn't say it killed a little bit of me. But it definitely like changed how I thought about life and the way I lived life, I wanted to kind of get away from everything. So I applied for some different jobs and ended up moving to Asheville, North Dakota, I had only planned on staying there for about a year. And then I wanted to move south I wanted to move to Tennessee where one of my best friends lives or just somewhere near there, like I just wanted to, I wanted, I didn't have my family anymore, I didn't have my husband. So I wanted to have the career. I ended up meeting my now husband, and we had gotten pregnant then. So I have a little boy, he's now four. And now we have had to do we've had to deal together with secondary infertility, which to me is kind of like another loss. We suffered a miscarriage a year after our first was born. And then just going through the infertility was tough, and we learned a lot from each other. And it wasn't perfect. We weren't perfect in our stuff, I guess in our lives, like with how to deal with that infertility, secondary infertility, and then we ended up deciding to do IVF and now we are pregnant about halfways pregnant with our little girl. So life now I still Six years later, I still grieve my first husband, and I always will, I will always greet him, it's just the way I grieve is a little different now. And I the way I like to what helps me is I like to help other people who've experienced the loss of someone and maybe it's just me going out to lunch with them or having a conversation and not everyone wants that. But I reach out and if they want my friendship, then that's fine. Um, I hate that they that we have that connection. But it is what it is in life is what it is. And that's the way I guess I I have grown as a person is helping others with loss. So but now Yeah, I mean, I still grieve him Six years later, and I'll grieve him for everyday for the rest of my life. But it's just a little different now and I am happy. Um, but I still grieve him so
Victoria Volk 7:23
Well, and because grief doesn't end because we still I mean, you loved him, obviously. And that doesn't just go away, right? we grieve because we love and in being through going through grief recovery method, you know that grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations. And despite all the joy that you have in your life right now, it you know, um, can you speak to is it what might have been? What could have been? Or what was like, you know, these unexpected losses that you said occurred because of that loss? You know, the things that you experienced because of that loss? Can you speak to that a little bit?
Patti 8:16
Um, yeah, I just
Victoria Volk 8:18
Friendships that you love. Yeah, things like that.
Patti 8:20
I just think you when I just think like the loss of expectation. So you think that you're not going to lose those friendships? Do you think that you expect things to go differently, like I did not expect to get married again, I did not expect to fall in love. But I was young. And that's just what happened. And I'm so thankful. And I thank God every day for who I did fall in love with because he is so understanding of my whole journey with Jared and everything, like my first husband. So I'm very thankful for my husband now that he is truly understanding of that, and maybe he doesn't understand it or, but he's there and he supports me through it all. So I'm very thankful for that.
Victoria Volk 9:06
And that is huge, right? It's he, I know in grief recovery, you learn to about being a heart with yours. So he sounds like he is that for you.
Patti 9:15
Is my heart with yours? Yes,
Victoria Volk 9:17
Yeah, that's special. So what would you like to say to the world about or wish that people knew about your grief?
Patti 9:31
I like to tell people all the time, grieve, how you want it as long as you're not hurting yourself or others. How long you want it I just feel like there should be no timeline on it. You can grieve as long as you want. grieve as short as you want. I just don't think there's any right or wrong answer, but I just don't think that as a widow or someone who's lost someone, like don't let people tell you how to grieve and how long to grieve and I just remember feeling like I can't sit at home and cry. I can't be out in public and smiling and anyone be happy with that. So I was just going to do things for me. And I didn't care what people thought, if I wanted to be happy that day, I was gonna be happy. If I wanted to cry, I was gonna cry, and I still have those days where I just want to cry, or I just want to be happy. So I call them my Jared days.
Victoria Volk 10:24
Well, and like grief, you know, this that just like going through the grief recovery method, having experienced it, it comes in waves, right? It's gonna come and it's gonna go. But the important thing I think our listeners hear is that you have not allowed these expectations placed on you by societal norms of, you know, we learn in grief recovery, that one of the myths of grief is Time heals all wounds. Right, you know, and I know that time just passes, it's what you do, and the action that you take within that time. Now I know the relationship with your husband is not one that you have worked on through recovery yet. But, you know, once you go through this method, and as you know, you have these tools to use whenever at your disposal, what resonated with me early on in my healing journey and night, we kind of talked about it briefly before we started recording is that healing takes time. And investment in ourself, takes time. And we can get really busy in life, children, work, careers, jobs, husbands, you know, all these distractions pulling at us and, you know, screaming at us for their for their time, you know, I've got three kids and a husband, day job and a side hustle. And so it's like, all these things. But there's one thing that I've learned is that even if I take one hour a week, even just one hour a week to just read something that will inspire me, that will motivate me to reach my highest potential or dig a little deeper into what I've been feeling. Sometimes that's all it takes to to create momentum and things and, and so are there any practices that you've been doing since grief recovery to help you keep that, at the top of your mind? Maybe it's not necessarily priority right now, because you've had a lot of things that you've been, you know, have really been more of your focus, you know, with the, you know, a new baby, you're growing a baby, like, that's a lot of work. And, and it's taxing on the body, too, right? It's like it's exhausting to grow baby. All you resonate mothers. And you already have a child a boy. And so I know there's all these things in your life that take your time now, but is there anything that you could even if it's just a micro thing, like something small? What is helping you on days where you're having those Gera days, or when you're feeling a little overwhelmed by life, or you're feeling just emotionally taxed a little bit? Is there anything that you're doing that is helping you on those days?
Patti 13:34
I know that maybe I'm doing it a different way than like reading something. But I think my way of doing it would be talking like having conversations, like deep conversations with people, and I've had quite a few lately, and I'm not really sure why. But my friends, they didn't hear they didn't know Jared, but they still ask me questions about it. Like, how did you feel like, what did you do? And they just listened to me, but they still, like want to know, too, you know, and I think for me, like, you guys really should get, you know, your life insurance figured out or like a will or something because you just never know. Like, we're getting older and things happen. And it's just life and it sucks. And you don't want to think about that stuff. But we didn't either when my husband passed away, so I think having those deep conversations, we have feeling conversations, like I've just been having a lot of that lately. Um, and then just like I drive a half hour on my way home, so I feel like I decompress and I'm like, Okay, my workday is over and now I need to focus on other things. So that half hour to work and, you know, on the way back, I feel like I get to reflect a lot and I get to reflect a lot by having these conversations with people. So that's kind of my way, maybe not so much journaling or reading something, but just the deep conversations with people.
Victoria Volk 14:54
I just got body chills because that, yes, that totally resonates with me because I think in, specially in grief we get, like, it's so easy for society just even in general to do have like the surface level conversations like, you know, talk about the weather. Yeah. Let's talk about grief, like we talk about the weather and maybe I got to change that because that really brings to light like, well, I want to go when I say that, let's talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather, it's more like, let's just make it a daily conversation. Let's make it. Let's make it part of the conversation, right? But when we actually just talk about the weather, we're just really scratching the surface, right? It's like, what lights you up? You know, if someone were to ask you that, like what lights you up? I know I if I I've asked some people that in my circle, they kind of look at me like I have two heads. You know, it's like you kind of can see who you can have deep conversation with. Oh, yeah, I hear it. Yeah. And oftentimes, I find it's people who have an awareness around what they've endured in their life and how it's impacted their life. Both pilot
Patti 16:15
Might not even be like, serious, they might not even be like serious as losing someone but just like, even though I've lost a husband, I feel like I can relate to other people that were in my group that never actually like lost someone. Like I appreciate them more. Yeah, yeah, our grief is similar, but we can still talk about it. Like it's the same but it's not. I don't know.
Victoria Volk 16:37
Well, it wouldn't be right because every relationship is unique and individual and that's the beautiful thing about deep conversation right is we can see things from a different perspective that is impossible for us to see it because we haven't experienced it. So I really resonate when you say that like deep conversation really jazzes me to like it lights me up. Yeah,
Patti 17:01
I'd rather talk about it then journal it, I guess my hand gets tired.
Victoria Volk 17:06
But that's a that's an excellent tip, thank you for sharing that. I think that's a really a really valid, useful point to make. And also to like, you know, 30 minutes and a commute. Like I travel a lot with my day job. I love podcasts. I love listening to podcasts during that time stuff that's going to feed my brain stuff that's going to motivate me or inspire me or you know, what encouraged me to strive for for just to be better and who I am and live my life more aligned with what I value and I think would you agree that kind of grief does that for us like it kind of just really it's kind of like a it's a reset button for our soul? Maybe it's a reset button for for our lives in a lot of ways like on another interview we talked about how it just it's it's like this clarifier clarifies things so in what ways do you feel like your grief has clarified things for you in your life?
Patti 18:17
So sometimes I feel like people dot not that they take it for granted but they just don't realize like, well and sometimes I catch myself too if I'm complaining like oh, my son's being so naughty today like someone come take him. But then I think of the person who lost their four year old son and I'm like they don't they wish they would have that. And so I think of that too. Like, I try not to complain like when I'm complaining I just like have to decompress and be like, okay, I don't have it bad. Like, I can handle this people. Like I wish I could fight with Jared like I fight have fights with Barrett like. So I just try not to take some of that stuff for granted. And I like try and think like, okay, life really isn't that bad. I've been through bad. And people other people have been through are going through worse things. And I should just be grateful and thankful for what I have in my life right now. Like I am very thankful that we got to go through IVF and we did get pregnant because it doesn't always work for everyone. And I'm thankful for the way that that journeys been and led us and I've helped a lot of people because of that other women who are going through it other men who are going through it. So I just have to try and feel thankful for my time right now.
Victoria Volk 19:32
I just had an inspired that. Perhaps you have Barrett want to start a podcast.
Patti 19:41
I actually listened to infertility podcasts. And I love hearing other women but I don't know I would rather them reach out to me it's still like an unspoken thing. Like people. A lot of people don't want to talk about it. Other people want love to talk about it. So it's just like if I let the women come to me or the men come to me, so
Victoria Volk 19:59
That's wonderful that you're willing to share in that way because and also having you bring a unique perspective to that too. I think just because you've gone through grief recovery, and you have this, it's not even inside knowledge. It's just new knowledge, right?
Patti 20:19
It's not talked about, like you don't need people don't talk about it. So other like women don't know, like, if they just have a simple, like a simple thing wrong with their hormones or something, it might just be a pill they have to take, you know, and that's not huge, but other people need more in their lives as far as the infertility side of it. So to me, it's like if I can just get them to go to the doctor and see what's wrong, it could be something so simple, you know, and then they could have that baby and things like that. I just want to be inspiring for people.
Victoria Volk 20:50
Well, you're starting here on Instagram, actually, I just want to before I forget and before we get into some other conversation, but where can people find you where you're sharing your story with infertility that where they can reach out to you where where can
Patti 21:06
I did start with Instagram because there are some people in my life that don't don't feel comfortable talking about IVF and infertility and they just don't feel comfortable. So I started with Instagram, haven't been updating it in a while. But my Facebook, my personal Facebook, too, like, if you want to message me on there, add me as a friend. I mean, I can tell if you're fake or not so
Victoria Volk 21:28
But where where can people find you on Instagram then a journey to baby hair too journey to baby hair too and I'll put it with a number twos. Number two, yeah, I will put that in the show notes. Okay. Okay, so let's move on to what would be one tip that you would give other hurting hearts today.
Patti 21:56
Um, if you some people I feel like that I've known now since I've been become a widow. They maybe don't need as much help, I guess outside help. But I thought the grm course was very good for me. And I'm glad that I found it but I was five years later, you know. But I feel like if you have a good support system, like find your support system, it doesn't have to be family, it doesn't have to, I don't know, I just if you want to find other widows or maybe not, maybe they don't want to have to be other widows or widowers, but just find someone to be able to talk to finds people who are supportive of everything you're doing. That's and then just don't let anyone tell you how to grieve or how long to grieve because you're going to do it at your own pace. And maybe you don't want to grieve that long maybe you don't want to feel the way you do so then you just need some extra support. So have a good support system. And I feel like the ladies that I actually took the class with they are gonna have a special place in my heart for the rest of my life so whether we don't talk every day or we do you know, I haven't talked to some of them in a long time. But I feel like I could just pick up the phone and call them and they would answer so I am thankful for that.
Victoria Volk 23:09
That was a very for those that don't know or aren't aware but yeah, it was my very first group and it was one it was just a really really good experience for me. I yeah, it was it meant everything to me and it really set the stage for the work that I'm doing and still continue to do and launching the podcast and just so thank you for sharing that because you help spread the message to that grief recovery is a valid option for people to move beyond loss and grief. So share with the listeners if you wouldn't mind the relationship with someone living for example it wasn't someone that you went you didn't work on a relationship with someone living in the in the grief recovery group program when we went through with the other individuals but what do you feel like when you when you after you gone through that method and you were looking at the relationship with with the people living in your life? What do you feel like was one thing that you that came out of that like what did what was an awareness or something like how did going through grm connect the dots for you in other relationships I guess having not yet worked on those relationships.
Patti 24:29
So I've just learned like, I can forgive people and I can mend that relationship with myself in them but not necessarily them in person. But I I only allow them to hurt me so much. Now so like I put my family first my child first so I don't let some of those living people around us not that I don't let them around but I just only let them So much and I know how to now handle if our relationships like I understand now why my relationship with that living person is the way it is and how I can deal with it um there's something called PS letters and I know that for the rest of my life I will have p s s s s s s s letters with that living person so
Victoria Volk 25:20
And so what it kind of sounds like to me is that you've really established where you needed boundaries for yourself and your family around that relationship around those people living your life would you agree? Yes, yeah.
Patti 25:36
I took responsibility for our relationship I guess well on my end that person needs to do the rest
Victoria Volk 25:43
Right yeah, we can only work on ourselves that's all we have control over and and one way that we can protect our energy and protect our our hearts is to create those boundaries of you know, it's just a buffer right create like this protective shield around ourselves and it's not to keep them out. Right?
Patti 26:05
Right. But it's not pushing them away.
Victoria Volk 26:08
Right. It's to protect what's inside us within that boundary including our loved ones right? Because doing that is actually a form of self care I I've learned that when we create boundaries for ourselves and for you know what matters to us. That is self care and action
Patti 26:29
And how to do that with quite a few relationships now and I believe grm helped with that so
Victoria Volk 26:34
Excellent. Yeah, cause you it's an educational program you'll learn so much
Patti 26:39
You focus more on the tools and like I thought it was going to be more on like, I had to sit there and talk about my relationship. No, it was more based on you gave us tools how to handle situations or things or relationships. So
Victoria Volk 26:52
Yep. And every day every every week actually is like a little puzzle piece right? kind of goes together. Did you see it coming? Like in the first two weeks, like were you like, what did I get myself into?
Patti 27:05
I know there was a few of us that were little like we pushed back a little bit in the first weeks because we were like, We want to see results now. But I think in the end we were all very happy with how it went. So
Victoria Volk 27:17
It takes takes time. And because there's so much content, there's so much information like our brains couldn't even really like you know, my brain had to take it all in like a matter of days. But in the Grievers mind and a Grievers heart can't just it's that's not for everybody it's really not and so that's why it's broken down into little chunks of information to that builds every week kind of like algebra it's like algebra builds up every week of you know every lesson after lesson but
Patti 27:50
And I just feel like anger is just like for me it was has always been a part of grief and I think I was like pushing back because I was angry I didn't know why I was feeling that way and that class made me feel certain things that I didn't know I was gonna feel and so I was just pushing back a little bit but then it all buffed out in the end so
Victoria Volk 28:11
Yep it really helped you to process the anger and stuff Yeah,
Patti 28:16
Gave me the tools to do that.
Victoria Volk 28:17
Is there anything else that you would like this is your opportunity your grieving voice to share is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners today?
Patti 28:27
Just that grief can come in many forms like in my situation I thought that this whole time you know is going to be about Jared and it was about someone living but it is about Jared too it's about at all and I just learned that it's crazy how we can grieve living people we can grieve people who are gone we you know it's just I think everyone is going to grieve someone or something in their lives whether they actually lost them or not. So
Victoria Volk 28:55
So I just had a thought come to my mind which I think is very important that we bring up because you got to IVF because you had a miscarriage and miscarriage as you know through grief recovery is one of the most minimize losses Do you feel like I'm I'm it's this is me and my curiosity and we're just you know, this is on the cuff off the cuff but do you feel like the education that you receive through grief recovery had set you up to help you process that loss in particular that? Yes, I for your husband as well
Patti 29:35
Yeah, we grieved it differently and I think some people don't think that the men grieve it this and we don't grieve it the same but I feel like men they just don't think that they grieve it like women do but my husband grieved the loss of that baby and we both did and we still do we still look at around town and think our child should be that age and running around with that kid and it's it is hard and but We've grown as a couple and individuals and I think even though he didn't take the class what I have talked about like he is also taken into heart and understands a little bit so yes
Victoria Volk 30:13
Yeah and you know because grief is cumulative as cumulatively negative I think I say this on every episode but it's so important right because if you think about like all the losses that you've had and you know that during this work like we you look at every loss and put in front of you, you look at it literally look at it all it could be easy to just lay back on you know, just lay down in life and just give up and just like I can't take another thing I cannot take another thing like it's just you know, because it stacks up one after the other. Someone who has gone through a miscarriage. What do you feel like they can do? I know you mentioned about finding your support, which is amazing. But what is it about miscarriage in particular? Because I don't have personal experience with that. I don't. But what is something that if I came to you and I said that I had this miscarriage? What do you feel like is the best piece of advice that you could give me?
Patti 31:25
I would just be there for you right away, like how are you doing with it? And then if you want to talk about it, then I would be that you know, listening heart with yours. But I catch myself saying, Oh my gosh, they were that far along. Or you know, at least it wasn't after the first trimester. Like I catch myself saying that and I'm like, but I miscarried in the first trimester. And I do feel like it was just as hard as losing us like a full term baby like, I still went through the labor I still miscarried my baby like I still. It was still a person it was even though I only miscarried. And I was like 12 I was 12 weeks, but the baby died earlier. Um, I don't know. I just, I think you got to talk about it if you want and reach out to people who have miscarried because most likely, almost every woman has had a miscarriage like most women have, and you would never know, my grandma had like five of them. So just to I talked to her I just talked to her the other day about miscarriages like back in her day to like, they just didn't talk about it. And you don't have to, but if you need to, there is support out there. And my question like now that I've gone through IVF is why, why are you miscarrying you know, if you want to do that, like if you want to have another baby, I will be there for you. And I will answer any questions that you need, like how to get started about going to the doctor. It could just be something so simple, which is sad that you had to go through a miscarriage because of that, and I would never wish a miscarriage upon anyone, because it's awful. Um, but just, I don't know, don't just blow it off. Like it's just something little because it's not even if he miscarried at six weeks, like it's still a miscarriage.
Victoria Volk 33:19
Exactly. Yeah, I would. Yeah, I agree. A baby is a baby. Life. Do you feel like and I don't know, like, Can you speak to this a little bit to like that part of the problem is maybe the fact maybe why it is one of the most minimize losses is because it is not talked about because it is such a, maybe it is because people do people have this feeling you think that is so common? Like it's,
Patti 33:47
Well, it's one in four, one and four is that like, that's what they're saying one in four. And for me, I tried minimizing it by saying, you know, it's one in four, obviously, there was something wrong with it, it couldn't grow anymore. So you know, it kind of is a blessing, but it's still a loss. Like whether it's a blessing or not like whether 94 year old person dies, and it was a blessing, it's still a loss. A loss is a loss. And if you want to feel sad about that loss, whether they're 94 years old, or six weeks in the womb, like I just think you got to feel it.
Victoria Volk 34:18
I think that is a great place to end. A loss is a loss. And you just got to feel it. I love that. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today, Patti, for sharing your story of loss of you know, being a widow, miscarriage IVF just the losses we can experience with those living in our lives, for sharing your experience through grief recovery, for sharing that with whomever you cross paths with in your daily life. It means the world to me to spread this message that there is hope that there is something there that can help Have you have a new perspective on grief? I think that's really kind of what it comes down to is that it doesn't have to define the rest of your life. It doesn't have to be the driver of your life. I think you were doing wonderful things by sharing your story with people being a heart with yours for others. We need more of that definitely in our society. So thank you for being that for people and for being on the podcast today.
Patti 35:30
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 35:31
Absolutely. Again, I will have in the show notes where you can find Patti if you want to reach out to her on the topics of IVF being a widow or miscarriage, and until next time, much love Take care.