Phil Cohen | The Pursuit of Healing After an Ocean of Tears

They say it's unnatural to lose a child. And, there's no word for a parent who has lost a child other than griever, which somehow doesn't embody all a parent experiences—much less childless parents.

What is a word for a parent whose only child dies?

As it turns out, there's maybe only one that might describe that inconsolable feeling - lost. 

Phil found himself lost in an ocean of tears after his only son, Perry, 14 1/2 years old, and his friend became victims of a storm that came out of nowhere while fishing on their 19' fishing boat off the Jupiter inlet in Jupiter, Florida. It was a beautiful summer day that turned treacherous on July 24th, 2015, and it was a day that changed the trajectory of Phil's life forever, as grief does.

The waves and tides of the ocean are often an analogy used for grief. There is irony in Phil's story of how he lost his only son, never to be found. However, what Phil did find was his voice, a calling in his pain, and lessons in the heartache along the way.

Phil lives his life as if it were a love letter, continually being written to his beloved and only son. Although it's a letter, he would rather not be (metaphorically) writing, and he would change that day if he could, knowing that healing is the only thing he can do about it.

Phil has chosen to listen to his son's voice, which he believes he heard one night while crying alone: "Get up, dad!"

May this episode inspire others, especially if you've lost a child, to come to terms with what happened and what you cannot change, and dare to GET UP and do something about it now.

RESOURCES:

• TEDx Talk | When I Lost My Only Child
• The work of Elisabeth Kubler Ross | The Five Stages of Grief®

CONNECT:

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• National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
• Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

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Transcript

Victoria Volk  0:00  
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Phil Cohen. He is a keynote TEDx speaker, grief coach and creator of the grief continuum, a framework for helping others grow, flourish and overcome despair by discovering and developing their inner resilience. for over 25 years, Phil has helped global technology startups grow and prosper through developing their sales teams. After experiencing the sudden loss of his son, Phil has found a renewed purpose in helping others to integrate grief into their own lives after experiencing the inevitable traumas, tragedies and transitions in life. Thank you so much for being my guest, Phil.

Phil Cohen  0:44  
Yeah. Thank you for having me, Victoria. It's a pleasure to be here.

Victoria Volk  0:50  
So let's start with you call yourself is your business the grief guy? Is that accurate?

Phil Cohen  0:57  
Yes. Does that mean either just Phil Cohen or the grief guy. And you know, the reason why I did that is that I found that the vast majority of people that I'm working with are men. And it's been my experience through everything that I've gone through, that men have no idea or they're, they're really not educated on how to grieve properly. So they'll push it down, they'll run away from it. And especially those men who have lost a child, as a society, we have a tendency to flock around the mothers, which I totally, totally get. And dad just wants to be strong for his wife and his family. And he really doesn't get a chance to be heard. So I just named my business to grief guy really just to, in an effort maybe to attract more men?

Victoria Volk  1:46  
Do you find that a lot of the work that you're dealing with these men do you do actually do dig into their childhood experiences with grief and trauma too? Does a lot of that come up? Or is it mostly just current grief experiences that they're having? They find that.

Phil Cohen  2:02  
It always starts sorry to interrupt the dad always starts with the current experience. That's where the jump off point is, and eventually inevitably gets into other parts of their life. So it's kind of like, it starts out and grief coach, and then maybe more of like a life and business coach at the same time. That, you know, I found that a lot of men or even some of the women that I work with, they want to do something with what they've learned and what they've been through. So whether it's be I get a lot of questions about how did you get your TEDx? What did you do? What processes did you go through the process of writing a book and people ask me, Well, how can I do that? Do I have to Self Publish? How do I start? So it's not only working through the emotional aspect, it's also helping them do something with what they've learned through their grief.

Victoria Volk  2:53  
And when did this this all started because of your own loss and your experience? And so can you take us back into time and share what your loss has been? And the impact it's had?

Phil Cohen  3:07  
Sure. So on July 24 2015, and if you were ever if you're anywhere on the East Coast, especially Florida, you likely remember the story. My son and his close friend were last seen leaving the Jupiter inlet on a 19 foot fishing boat. There was a really bad storm, one of those storms that South Florida storms that come out of nowhere, that was 40 mile an hour winds, heavy rains. We tried to reach the boys via their cell phones and after an unsuccessful attempts at that the Coast Guard was notified. And I haven't confirmed this but I was told that it was the most extensive search in the history of the United States Coast Guard that lasted seven excruciating days if if you live I live in California now in San Diego, so on the other coast, and people go miss all the time. You know, paddleboarders people on sailboats. Generally they'll look for a week I'm sorry, like a day, maybe a half a day, but to be continuing looking for a week and all the assets that were used. You know, it was it was a really long search. Unfortunately, neither of the boys were ever found. And although I've been through all of the reports, and there was the Coast Guard report, the FWC see report that's Florida, wildlife. FBI was involved and we hired private searches as well. I don't know for sure exactly what happened, but I'm pretty sure they got caught in a storm there. I know that their motor seized and likely flipped over in that storm. Then I'd like to think that they perish quickly, but we don't know for sure.

Victoria Volk  4:52  
Was the boat ever found.

Phil Cohen  4:55  
The boat was lost and found three times for good or not. So the boys went missing on a Friday. On Sunday, they found the boat off the coast of Ponce de Leon from Florida, so many, many miles north, a guy who got into the jet stream and started to head north than what the Coast Guard will do is they'll basically reverse engineer the currents to determine where the boat, you know where the boats started from. So what they said that they did was that they threw in a marker buoy, because they found it with a helicopter. And they couldn't obviously, I'm sorry, it was initially one of their planes. So they dropped a marker buoy that would basically stay with the boat. But unfortunately, somehow it didn't. Then several months later, water taxi, spotted the boat, and they went back to go to go get the right equipment to pull the boat in. And then when they when they went back for it, they couldn't find it. And then about a year and a half later, there was a Norwegian shipping container that eventually found the boat and pulled it up onto onto, onto its, I forgot what you call the platform of that boat. But so we eventually did find the boat. And believe it or not, one of the crazy things about that was the mom my son's friend's cell phone, his iPhone was found in a watertight compartment inside the boat. We sent the phone to Apple to get some data off the phone, but any possible data because I really thought okay, now I'm gonna be able to fill in some of the missing pieces of exactly where they were, maybe some of the texts or phone calls that were made. But Apple was never able to retrieve any information off the phone. So, you know, there's still a lot of missing pieces to it. But the boat was eventually found.

Victoria Volk  6:49  
Was it in good condition? Like it was still good condition or just pretty?

Phil Cohen  6:54  
No, no, it was very deteriorated. I mean, the the phone was actually in decent condition. But the boat was there was just mainly just a hall, the center console, I basically dropped off, and a lot of the other pieces have basically dropped off. There are there are photos of it. If you Google, Perry Cohen, who's my son, you'll you'll see, you'll see that pictures of the boat, and the vessel that attempted to pick it up or did pick it up. But it was crazy. The the captain of that boat said that his wife was on there with his wife and his wife said, let's go out and get some fresh air. And he said, If he didn't go out at that exact moment, and look in the direction exactly where he looked, he would have never spotted the bow because it had a black hole. So it was almost like, you know, a bow wanted to be found.

Victoria Volk  7:49  
Wow. So what was life? Like? In the weeks following? And after and months? What was that? Like?

Phil Cohen  7:58  
You know, people asked me that question quite a bit. And it's, it's like almost impossible to put into words what that feeling is like, Perry was my only child. So you know, and prior to that, I'd always consider myself blessed. Because I'd never been I still do consider myself blessed. But I'd never lost anybody that I loved. So to all of a sudden lose the most precious person in my life was a real blow to me, I didn't know what to do, I'd say in terms of feeling. It felt like somebody just scooped out the entire middle of my body. Like there was nothing in the center part of my body, but it still hurt a lot. And you know, there's there's no preparation or training or, you know, for something like that. So I really, I had no idea what I was supposed to do. So I just, I just broke down. Really I broke down and stay I stayed hidden for quite some time just in a dark room on the floor crying trying to figure out asking, asking why, why me? Definitely had my, you know, my wrestling with God moment for sure that especially as a Christian going into this, I remember thinking, God, you know, the words that you used, and could have said anything to tell the world how much he loves the US. But the words he chose to use was I love the world so much that I gave my only begotten Son. And yet you took my and so it was definitely shook my faith for a little bit. But I'm so thankful for the foundation of faith that I had in place going into this. Because otherwise, I really don't know where I would be.

Victoria Volk  9:57  
What did healing look like for you?

Phil Cohen  10:01  
Healing? Well, you know, like I said, we in our pre interview, I didn't know, really what I was supposed to do, really, I didn't know, do I see a therapist? Or what? What kind of therapist? How do I find a good therapist. So I actually Googled how to grieve, because I knew that doing nothing wasn't going to be the right thing. And I really wasn't sure what I was supposed to do. And if you google anything around grief, you're gonna find the five stages of grief. And for me, you know, denial, anger, bargaining depression, when I saw that, it felt like I was doing something wrong, because I had an experienced grief in those stages, or in those ways. So the ultimate healing came from me is from a couple of things, one talking to people, I did go see a therapist. And that was very helpful, both talk therapy and EMDR therapy. But the biggest moment for me was, in one of those moments, when I found myself on the floor curled up in a ball. I saw my son and may people ask me, Did you really see him? I'm not sure. You know, maybe it's been so similar to yours, but I definitely heard it. And he said, Get up, dad. It's okay. I'll see you when you get here. But the way that he said, Get up dad was like, enough already, like you cried, you know, you've gone through this, you've been doing this for a year and a half. Get up live your life with passion, like you've always told me to do. And I'll see when you get here. And that, at that moment was was a transitional point for me, because I was always focused on myself. You know, I was focused on my own pain, my own shame and worthlessness and guilt. And it wasn't, it was the moment when I stopped asking myself why me, too, you know, what can I do about this now, that things really began to shift for me? And hearing those words, let it just let me know that my son didn't want to see me in that state. It's not the way he'd want me to live my life. So when I talked to people about this, they'll say, Well, it's like, he gave you permission. But I feel like, you know, I gave myself permission, he just told me like, just enough already. And when I finally gave myself permission to let go of the worthlessness and the shame and the guilt, I started taking posted notes, and I placed them, you know, my car and my bathroom mirror or my refrigerator, and I'd write things like, I'd give myself permission to heal. And from that moment on, it was a real shift for me, because I started, stopped thinking about myself and started thinking about, Okay, well, what can I do about this now?

Victoria Volk  12:59  
Growing up, you said that your son's that this loss of your son was the first loss that you experienced. So growing up, you didn't have any losses and grief wasn't really a topic of conversation in your home?

Phil Cohen  13:14  
Yeah, no. So my both my my mom's parents were gone. Before I was born. My father's mother was gone before I was born. I did lose my grandfather, but we weren't very close. So you know, although that was probably my first experience with a direct family member. You know, it wasn't the extreme amounts of pain that you feel from somebody that you spend every day with, or you see often or a brother or sister. So it's not that we avoided the discussion, it just it nothing traumatic like that ever happened.

Victoria Volk  13:54  
I'm curious if you ever thought because in grief isn't just about death of a loved one, it can be the loss of a dream, or it really is to the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different and better or more, that can be for relationships with those living, and it can be with your career, or all sorts of things. Did you ever consider or think about, like the loss of not having grandparents really in your life? You said your grandpa was in your life, but you weren't real close? So I mean, I just think back to my childhood, there's a picture of me in my classroom. And I it was like Grandparents Day, and I'm looking turning around and on either seat next to me. My classmates both had their grandparent with them. And I was the only kid that didn't have a grandparent with with them. So did that ever. Was that something that you recognized as a child that you didn't have your grandparents in your life?

Phil Cohen  14:56  
That's a great question. Yes, you Yes, there definitely were times where I did recognize that I just And don't get me wrong. I mean, I guess when you when you put it like that I definitely had experienced a lot of grief prior to losing my son. I mean, I've lost relationships and, you know, other things that I loved jobs, hopes and dreams, things like that. But none of that. I guess I, I've always been fairly resilient, you know, growing up, I just folk say, okay, you know, I'd feel the pain and then immediately ask, Okay, what's next? What can I do about it? Because if there's nothing that can be done with the loss of a job, or the loss of a dream, or something like that, you know, then I chose really not to ruminate in it, because a lot of these things like these other decisions, you know, I feel like they do come down to a choice. Yes, we do. We do need to grieve those things and feel the pain. But eventually, we it's a choice whether we want to live there or not. So, you know, with with everything else prior to losing my son, I felt like I was able to move on fairly quickly. But with my son that was that took me for a big loop, for sure. I'm not sure if I completely answered your question, but I can't recall ever feeling sad that I didn't have you know, grandparents, because they've always had a lot of friends and a lot of family. So maybe not knowing what I didn't wasn't missing, potentially was part of that.

Victoria Volk  16:42  
In the work that you do with men, particularly how do you help them discern then if what they're how they're approaching their grief is, is resiliency, or if it's a tendency for not just men, but many of us to be like missed, like, go into the Mr. Fixit role, like I'm gonna fix this, and I'm going to, you know, what, I'm getting a

Phil Cohen  17:11  
Yes. And I mean, I think that that's definitely what you know, as men, we do always go into, you know, what can we do to fix it? And, you know, I, I feel like, yeah, as you said, it's not just men that do that. The biggest thing is, you know, have they taken the time number one to truly feel the pain, because that's, that's one of the biggest things that I feel that most men don't take the time to do. It's kind of like holding a beach ball underwater, right? Like, you could do it. And you could do it for a while. But eventually, it's going to find its way out to the surface. And sometimes the harder we push it down, and the further we push it down, the faster and harder it comes up, you're not going to avoid it, you're not going to escape it and you can't insulate yourself from it, it's going to have to be addressed at some point. So you know, but most people have a tendency to, to run from it, you know, and there's a, there's a, there's kind of a great metaphor for this, one of my friends was telling me about where he lives in Colorado, near the Rocky Mountains. And I don't know if you know this, but you know, Colorado is one of the only places where both buffaloes and cows can coexist. And, you know, we all we all have storms right there storms are going to come. But the choice is the choice that we have is, what are we going to do about them? How do we respond to those storms. So and what these two creatures do when this with the storms is quite interesting. Cows, when typically, generally, the storms will come from the West, and head towards these. And cows will when they sense the storm, they will start running east away from the storm. And if you know anything about cows, you know that they're not very fast. So they want to running with the storm that ultimately maximizing their time, then the pain and the frustration that they have in that store. And I feel like as humans, we often do the same thing, right? We run away from these things that trials, tragedies and transitions as opposed to facing them. Below. buffalos do is quite unique to the animal kingdom. When buffaloes sense the storm coming from the west, they hide behind a ridge and when it rolls over the crest of the mountaintop, they turn and and run through the storm they run at the storm, ultimately minimizing their pain in time and frustration in the storm. And I think it's just a great metaphor because although we all have storms in our life, it's just a matter of how what we choose to do when we're faced with them. And you know, I'm not saying that when a storm comes especially like losing a child, you turn it face it and just run through it. You have to feel that pain And at some point, at some point, you're you have to make a decision if you want to stay there.

Victoria Volk  20:07  
How in that year and you said it was about a year and a half where it was just really difficult and challenging after your son passed? What? How was grief manifesting in your life during that time.

Phil Cohen  20:18  
It was a lot of feelings of worthlessness. A lot of feelings of guilt things I wish I could have done differently. Feeling like I wasn't able to even protect my only son. So you know, what good, am I just tremendous amounts of tears. And because of the fact that everything played out on national news and social media while this search went on, I didn't really even want to go outside. You know, I wanted to stay inside it. Because I would remember I know, and I recall several times where people were like, pointing and looking at me, and saying, oh, you know, that's the guy who lost his son at sea. And I remember thinking like, well, what's a man who lost his son at sea supposed to look like, you know, like, what? Am I supposed to walk around with my head down crying? You know? I didn't know what to do. I really didn't. I was completely and utterly lost. Having no idea what my next steps should be.

Victoria Volk  21:28  
I can't imagine it's, I mean, when we typically have a loss, we don't have it in the public eye. Right? And so I can't imagine what that would have felt like to feel like your grief is under scrutiny. Really, you probably felt like, I mean, from what you've described, like, you didn't know, am I doing this wrong? Should I be doing this a different way? Like, it would be very confusing and overwhelming, I'm sure.

Phil Cohen  21:58  
I was, and you know, even after even after, you know, hearing those words from my son, I remember thinking, okay, you know, maybe a couple of years, two and a half years later, I, again, didn't want to post anything on social media. My, I remarried about three years ago, and my, my wife and I took a trip to Italy. And I was, we were enjoying ourselves. But I didn't even want to post a picture of myself with any type of smile, or showing that I was doing something at a fear of people thinking, like, how could he be having fun? Like, how could he be out living his life, you know, after losing his only child, and just the fear of what other people might think. But, you know, my belief is that we don't have to stay there, that that is a choice, that is a choice. And I believe that I know, with absolute confidence and conviction that my son would not want me to be in that situation. And I believe that most of the people who've lost somebody, the one that they lost would also probably tell them to get up too. So at some point, like I said, it really does become a choice. And then, you know, how do we then take that first step, and then the next and then the next to be able to try to come back to an some semblance of a normal life?

Victoria Volk  23:23  
So what did that look like for you processing the guilt? And the shame and the feeling of scrutiny? Like, what did that look like?

Phil Cohen  23:35  
What did it look like? You know, a lot of it, a lot of it was internal, you know, a lot of it was my own thoughts. And, and asking myself, you know, is that true? You know, there was, there was nothing that anybody could have done in that moment, you know, other than maybe had locked my son up in a room, you know, which obviously, nobody's going to do. But so, really, you know, the, the first step for me was a decision to decide, I said, Okay, you know, I don't want to live my life like this, because if I do, this is not a life worth living, you know, to be just constantly ruminating and thinking about all the things that I could have done differently or ways that maybe I could have stopped it or how maybe some other people made mistakes and things like that. So that was getting me nowhere. So my first my first step was okay, I want to pursue a life of healing. And, and then, you know, to find some way to help other people. And then, you know, I cultivated community, you know, I found people that would support me, and to be there with me and to help me and you can't go through something like this alone. You can't you can't you can't do it alone. You need somebody there to help you and to pick you up, and not to fix it, just to be there and to listen and to let you cry and to just sit there with you. You know, I did find EMDR therapy helpful, but it didn't remove all of the pain, you know, wasn't able to remove and I don't think the pain will ever fully go away. And, you know, part of like, in the TED, my TED talk I talked about, yes, I did finally reach a point of acceptance and even found some gifts beyond acceptance. But even like, last night, or the night before, my wife and I were watching a movie, I don't remember the name. It's with Mark Wahlberg, where his son committed suicide, and he decides to walk across the country, to, you know, talk about bullying. And eventually, I think he gets hit by a truck and he dies. And just going through that watching the movie, I was in tears, I was in tears, because, you know, it makes me sad to kind of go back to some of those moments of losing my son. But all that's okay. It doesn't mean that I'm not healing properly or not grieving properly. I think grief is something that, you know, we move back and forth through it's not, you know, specific actual steps that we go through, even though there are similar stages, I think that we all experience, but there isn't one route. And I don't think that there is a place of acceptance, and then we're done. You know, we always we're constantly moving back and forth through this forever.

Victoria Volk  26:34  
Yeah, it's an ebb and flow. And I think as we grow and evolve, as does our grief, and in the follow up takeaways and reflections episode, I'll dig more into that five stages and talk a little bit about that. And so we won't cover that here. But we did briefly talk about ahead of time, though, that it wasn't a linear process. And it wasn't there's many more stages in quotations than just the five it's society really has, in pop culture has really driven home, the idea of the five stages, but really, it wasn't the intention of Elisabeth Kubler Ross's work and yeah, anyway, that's for another episode. But I want to ask if your son was in front of you, you had one day with him, he was just in front of you, what what would you want to say to him?

Phil Cohen  27:42  
You know, I like to journal. And I would let these free flowing thoughts come up as they did nothing in a particular order, or that it would make sense. And one time, I found myself writing a letter to Perry, I go back, and I visit it often. And I'm not sure that it will ever be done. So I've kind of had this conversation in my mind. The first thing I'd want to say is I'm sorry, ma'am. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to save him as his father, you know, that, to me, that was the most amount of pain is, you know, if, if they were if the boys were lost in a field or somewhere on land, I know, I'd be able to go to where they were and, and walk a grid pattern until I found them. But in the Atlantic Ocean, you know, it was nearly impossible to know where to start. But still, you know, I know that. I know that he must have been thinking or wishing that I was there to be able to save him. And so, you know, I would tell him that I'm sorry that I wasn't able to save him. I told parents that I loved him so often, to the point where I would say guess what power and you say, Yeah, Dad, I know you love me, you know, so, but I would still I would still tell him how much I love him and how much I wish that I would be able to experience all of the things that a parent should be able to experience with their child, you know, his first girlfriend. His first love getting married, going to school first job, and just being there as a dad to be able to give him the advice that I know that I did get AND and OR I would have wished I would have gotten, you know at his age and years past. How much I miss him. I miss him so much in others. Perry's Perry's natural state was one of them. Laughter he's such a happy kid. And I miss hearing that laugh, his laugh was infectious. And when he gave you a hug, it wasn't like a weak hug. It was a strong firm hug. And I miss feeling his arms are wrapped around me. I guess you know, things like that.

Victoria Volk  30:28  
Make me cry. I'm a mom. I'm a parent and I teenagers and so my heart just goes out to you. Because I'm know that pain probably will never go away that that sadness. Not that empty seats always there. And those milestones are never to be enjoyed. So thank you for sharing about Perry. In that way, have you been back to Florida?

Phil Cohen  31:02  
I have several times. I've been to the Jupiter inlet. The other the other my son's close friend, family, they put up a, a monument, a statue out there, of mom and dad are kinda like, I believe they say it's not supposed to be them. But it looks like them, have them kind of going like this with their hands above their eyes kind of searching out into the sea. There's no plaque or anything like that. It's just a memorial to them. You know that when I stand there, you know, I really feel it, because that's, that's the last place that they were seeing. There's video cameras, their boats going in and out of the Jupiter inlet. So that was, you know, the last time they were actually seen alive. And my parents lived there. And they live on the ocean. So I go out there. And I, you know, I talked to Perry every day in the shower in my car. And I remember, in the first like, the first couple of weeks, my my brothers, I have two older brothers among the youngest of three, they were there with me the whole time. And my oldest brother. He's definitely a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but you know, super positive kind of person. And I remember him saying to me, it's like, let's go on the ocean. And this was like, maybe 10 days, so a couple of weeks after the boys went missing. And I remember saying, I remember like almost getting an angry at him. Like how could you know, like, No, I don't want to. I remember saying to him, I know what you're trying to do. Like, almost got mad at him for doing that. And I know, I heard in my in my head also like, go ahead, Dad. You know, like, I don't know, there's something about I've always been this way. Like there's there's a there's a quote, I'm not sure who said it. But it's it goes. If you can't, then you must. So if anytime something ever comes up, that brings up a level of fear for me, I do it. Because on the other side of fear is always something powerful. There's always some kind of gift on the other side of fear. So we went in, I went in the ocean, and I broke down. I mean, I mean, I broke down big time. But there's healing that comes from that, you know, there's healing that comes from facing your storms, you know. So, and when I do because my parents are there, I go there and I sit on the beach, and I talked to Barry, even though I know he's not there. But since I have an idea of where they went missing, you know, you kind of feel like they're there with you. Like he's there with me. So yeah, I go back often, and I don't let anything like that. Get in my way, like things that I want to, you know, I don't let anything I don't do or not do anything out of fear. You know, I will let something if it scares me. I feel like it's something I need to approach and, you know, like giving my TED Talk and and, you know, working with other people and sharing my story right now, you know, this is this is probably like the fourth podcast I've ever been on. I still I'm still working my way through it. You know, but I'm here because I want people to hear my story. I want people to know that regardless of what they went through, that they can heal, that healing is attainable. And there are things you can do. But the first thing you have to do is choose because I would say that there's over the past six and a half years Here's I've had tons of conversations with people who have lost children. And maybe not somebody who's just lost the children, maybe someone who's lost a wife, or husband or somebody that's really close to them, or somebody will connect me with them. And I'd say about 10% of the people I speak to, will say something like, Phil, I don't care what you have to say, I lost the most precious person in my life. So there's nothing you could tell me, show me talk to me about my life is over. And I don't really even want to be here right now. So if that's the stance that you choose, then you'll likely never heal until you decide that healing is something that you want to pursue. So, you know, I made that decision. About a year and a half into it. I wish I would have made it earlier. But, you know, I remember, I think it's, um, I don't remember her name. It's on the tip of my tongue. There was a young lady through COVID.

Phil Cohen 36:04
She's in her husband lost his leg. He was a he was a is a theatre actor. And she was posting, you know, pretty girl, blonde hair. I can't believe I forgot her name. But she went on the view, or one of these talk shows, and she got scorned, because she was smiling, and she was laughing. And she was, she was having a good time, you know, that people were saying it's only been a few months, how could you be out there laughing and having a good time? You know, and I think that there's like this negative taboo thing that like, if something bad happens to you that you have to lock yourself up in a room for years, you know, and that's, that's, that's false. That's false.

Victoria Volk  36:47  
Criticized for that.

Phil Cohen  36:50  
What you mean for locking yourself up? Right? It's true. I've lost friends and family members. Because of this. People have said in a film, so it's just too sad for me to be around you. Which is, like a kind of like a double whammy, right? Like it's too sad for them. To be around lease

Victoria Volk  37:09  
Are very common. Yeah. What you've shared, I probably answered the question already. But I was going to ask you, what is your grief taught you and and you've kind of shared a lot there. But is there anything specific that you would like to say to that? What,

Phil Cohen  37:26  
Yeah yeah. It's taught me a lot. Actually. You know, I think that you've you've really, when you go through something like this, you really figure out who you are. When you ask yourself, when you stop asking, why, why me? And you start asking we okay, what can I do about it? Now, I realized that I'm a lot stronger than I thought I was. And I also that there's nothing at this point in my life, that can happen to me, that was worse than what already happened. It's no like, I can take on anything, I've made it through the worst, what some, many medical professionals would consider the worst possible thing that can happen to a human being it was losing a child, and I don't want to say made it through, but you know, I'm not living a life of despair. And now, you know, God's got me on a path to help other people get through that healing. And I just love, there's nothing more satisfying. So I've owned a couple of businesses, I've been fairly successful on a professional level. And the money and the success is so much lower on the totem pole, compared to somebody coming up to you or, and saying, Thank you, thank you for spending the time with me, thank you for that thing that you said, or that thing that you shared, because it's helped me heal. Like, to me, that is the highest level of appreciation, the highest level of a gift for me is to know that, I guess it's, you know, mid taking this thing, and making some sort of good out of it.

Victoria Volk  39:07  
In the work that you do with men now, can you talk a little bit about the grief continuum and what that looks like?

Phil Cohen  39:15  
Sure. So, you know, it does touch kind of, you know, a little bit, you know, on the five stages part of it, but, you know, it's it's when I had no idea what I was supposed to do. I go actually Googled how to grieve. I didn't know what I was supposed to do. And, you know, I saw the five stages and I felt like I think I must be doing something wrong, because I didn't experience grief like that. So, you know, you may start at denial or anger or bargaining or depression, but you also may be somewhere in guilt or worthlessness or revenge. And going through this process, you know, on the other side of acceptance So everything if you think about the continuum, with all the negative things being on the left, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, worthlessness, guilt, shame, all of those things, all those things are all about you. They're all it's you focused on you, then it's only when you start thinking about other people, and how you can help other people or even those being your family, and those other people that who are around you, that things start to shift a little bit. So, it's mostly it's mostly, you know, also getting guys to, to take the time to feel the pain, especially like men who have lost children. And I don't know if we talked about this earlier or during, during our time live, but when men lose a child, generally, as a society, we flock around the mothers, which I totally understand, I totally get. And there's not a lot of attention, if you go to, I've been to several, if you go to a few happened, not that you've want to but if you happen to find yourself at a funeral for a child, you will see this played out over and over and over again, how everybody will be flocking around mom, and dad's kind of off to the side. And it's been my experience that the last person men want to share their pain and their grief with is their wife, you know, they want to be there support them, you know, they want to be their rock, they want to be, you know, their support system. So a lot of times they don't get to, to let it all out and to face that the vulnerability, you know, that it takes to make it through feeling that pain. So I work with them on on to helping them to access that because you can't, you can't avoid it, you can avoid it and, and I know even you know from from with my my new wife, she over the years, she every time Perry's birthday repair his birthday or his death day. Or the day that he went missing. You know, I know, she would have say asked me questions like, how do you want to spend this day? You know, what, what she was really asking is, you know, can we do it together? You know, how can I be there with you to support you. And I always in the past, I always went and sat by the ocean and cried my eyes out by myself because I was I was afraid to let her in on some of that, you know, to let her you know, see me really ugly cry. And this this past year would have would have been Perry's 21st birthday. And I decided to try something new. So we went to a local restaurant, and we toasted Perry and, you know, as as going through that process, of course, you know, I started to break down and then you know, she didn't say anything, she wasn't trying to fix it. She wasn't trying to she did say, you know, we did talk about some of the times where Perry would make me laugh and some of the funny things that he did. And those things are extremely healing, to be able to speak about and let out, especially with somebody who's loves you, and who wants to be there for you. So to any any man that might be listening to this podcast, if there's somebody out there that you know, that you lot that loves you and that you trust, and is trying to express an interest in spending one of these days with you. And you've been hesitant because you don't want to let them fully in or you don't want them to see you ugly cry or you don't, you don't really know what you're supposed to do. Let them in, try something new. Let them in and spend some time with them. And I bet you'll find it as healing as I did.

Victoria Volk  43:51  
One of the myths of grief because so many of us are taught these lessons in childhood that you know, that's it's emulated for us because grief isn't generally talked about as we grow up is to be strong. And in a podcast, many podcast interviews at this point, it comes up frequently. But just yesterday I even brought posed the question like what does it mean to be strong? What's that even mean? Like what does that look like? There's no heroism and pretending that you've got it put together and that you're okay. And and really it's you're lying to yourself. And that probably does more harm than anything that anyone else, you know, can say to you. Those do harm to mean people say hurtful and harmful things all the time because they don't know better. They don't. They haven't received the knowledge of how to sit with others in their grief. Probably because they haven't setting their own. So true. Yeah. So I think for men specifically, it was actually two were it was military, we were taught in the military audience, and that's very much so. You know, the time. Yeah, be tough. And that's where a lot of men that they have that upbringing of believing need to be tough. Yeah,

Phil Cohen  45:23  
I think I think we've all been basically I'm, I'm 50 years old. So I know, you know, I feel like it's changing a little bit now. But, you know, I was basically brainwashed to believe that Real men don't cry, you know, but the we don't, we don't talk to each other about our emotions, or even go and seek therapy, you know, we're supposed to just tough it out and suck it up. And that is the farthest thing from the truth that that strategy doesn't work with grief, because you're never going to be able to outrun the memories, you're never going to be able to, to, you know, outflank them. So it's only by sitting in your grief and talking with it, and talking with people and facing it, that you then begin to connect to their memory memories and the reminders, because they're never going to go away. So I agree with you. And I think that I think I think it takes a lot more strengths, to be vulnerable, and to share your story and to cry in front of people than it does to not because I feel like it was a lot it was, it was a lot easier for me to push people away, and just do it all alone. And so it took me stepping into a discomfort, you know, to talk with people openly and honestly and vulnerably. And I think that more men need to realize that especially through grief that you you can't deny it, you can't run away from it. And if you want to truly heal, let people in and talk about it. Because otherwise, it's just it's going to come up in some negative way eventually.

Victoria Volk  47:09  
How has this because you know, with a family unit, everyone grieves, how has this reshaped your relationships? And I mean, do you talk is grief more openly talked about within the family now? Has that changed? A little bit?

Phil Cohen  47:26  
Yeah, you know, but, you know, it was it was me that that made that happen. I'm not saying that, you know, I take credit, it's that people will avoid it. You know, if my parents my brother's family, they, they avoid it. And I even notice it, like, you know, in just day to day conversations with those people that know me and know my story. You know, they'll say, if they're talking about their child, they'll kind of change the conversation because they don't want to make me feel bad or something like that, you know, I'll say, oh, no, you know, Perry played baseball, do you know, he was left handed, he was a pitcher. And he did this. And he did that. And I openly bring him up in just in conversations I don't, it's not something that I want to hide. And I don't want his memory to be forgotten. You know, and it's, I look at it as no to, you know, number one, I'm, I'm so thankful and feel blessed for the fact that I was even lucky enough to have a child, you know, I mean, there's a lot of people out there that that would have trying and trying and can't even have children. So the fact that I had a child and got to spend 14 and a half amazing years with him, I focus on all of the memories and the good times that we did get to share together because, you know, I do believe that where focus goes energy flows, right. So just like, you know, if you, you stand outside in the sun, you know, that sunshine can cover vast amounts of the earth and you can go outside and you can be stand there and be feel like you're being wrapped in a warm blanket. Yet, if you take a magnifying glass and you focus in on one specific area, you can start a fire, you know, and I believe that that's true of our thoughts as well. It's what we choose to focus on that where the energy goes. And I focus on all of the good things and the good times that I had, as opposed to the why me and why did this happen to me? And why didn't this person do that? And all of the negative aspects of it, it really, it's a conscious decision that you have to make. So I some people I can tell you even look surprised like that I'll bring up his name, you know, in conversation. But why? Why yes, this thing happened. There's nothing that I can do about that. Like, if there was a way for me to bring him back. I would do it. If there was a way for me to trade places with him in that moment. I would do it. But that's not possible. You know, there's I don't know if you've ever heard this, but there's that old Chinese tale about the magical mustard seed. Have you ever heard that?

Victoria Volk  49:57  
I haven't, but will you share it?

Phil Cohen  49:59  
Here? I will try my best. I don't have it memorized. But it's something like this, where there was a woman who lost her only child. And she went to some sage and said, What magical potions or incantations that you have to bring my son back. And he told her that he wanted to encourage go to find a mustard seed from a home that has never known sorrow. So off she went, and she she saw a big match. And she went, she knocked on the door. And she said, she said, I need to get a mustard seed from a seed from a home that is no no sorrow. Is this such a place? And they said, Oh, no, you're in the wrong place. This family has no sorrow. And she realized that what she went through, she was a she could possibly help these fans, this family. So she stayed with them for a while and help them and then off to the next place that she went, and then the next and the next. And she never found that magical mustard seed, but in her in her aura home that had never known sorrow. But in her travels, she was able to help so many people, she eventually forgot about finding that magical mustard seed. And I feel like I'm on a very similar path. You know, at that I'm finding that I'm put in positions where people have been through something, mostly the loss of a loved one, and through conversations and through walking them through specific, you know, diving into certain areas. That, yeah, I feel like that, that the I'm on a very similar path is that as that woman who was looking for that, that magical mustard seed, you know, that God, the universe, whatever you want to call, it, has me on this path, and has given me the strength to be able to have these conversations and to help other people navigate their own grief. And to me, there is nothing more rewarding than somebody helping somebody through that process. I'm not saying that, you know, everybody I talked to I can get them to the point where they're happy or something like that. And the fact is, I say this to several people, I don't I don't have a master's degree in psychology. But I have a PhD and experience, you know, and the heart to serve other people. And through that, you know, through my experience, I feel like I've been gifted an ability to be able to do that.

Victoria Volk  52:22  
That's wonderful. What is one tip that you would give, I mean, you gave a lot of tips, but is there one tip that you would give someone who's a parent, specifically who's lost a child? Today, listening,

Phil Cohen  52:36  
Most of the parents that I've spoken to have lost a child hold on to very similar things that I was holding on to, which was the guilt and the shame and all the things that they could have done. I think that, for me, everything changed when I gave myself permission to heal. You know, that may be a month that may be six years, I think it's going to be different for different people. And I believe that their child would likely want them to get up to write, they wouldn't want them to live in a life of misery and despair. But at some point, you have to give yourself permission to heal. And whether it's as simple as something as using post it notes or writing something in places where you can see them, allowing yourself to give yourself permission. At some point, you have to make that decision that you want to pursue healing. Because without that, nothing is going to work.

Victoria Volk  53:37  
I had a guest recently say you can be a griever and you still can go to Disneyland.

Phil Cohen  53:42  
Love that. I love that. Because you're always going to be a Griever we're always going, that's not like I've got I can't say all I've gotten through it, or I've overcome it. You know, it's, it's how you integrate grief into your life, I believe, because it's not something that if you look at it as something you're gonna have to overcome or break through, you might be setting yourself up for failure, because you're, you're always going to find those memories, you know, and those reminders, they're going to come up and and when they do take the time to feel though don't don't run away from them. That would probably be the other thing that would probably be even a big bigger thing is to don't avoid the pain. Don't push it down. Don't run away from it. There's times I mean, I have pictures of my son all over the house of pictures of me and him and pictures of just him. I mean, not like all over like where it's everywhere but in some rooms in the house because I want to see him I want to see his face, you know, and it's not something that I look at it and it makes me want to break down. But that's you know, I think it's also my perception of it. You know, the way that I choose to look at it, but is that to at some point they have You have to take the time to kind of sit in the pain of what happened and recognize what happened. Because that's where, for me anyway, the true healing came from.

Victoria Volk  55:10  
In the first early months or weeks. Did you want to when you realized he's not coming home? Like he's gone? Did you want to pack everything up? And do away with it? Like, what? Or did or you know, because sometimes parents will keep everything just as it was. And then there might be parents that just want to pack everything up and have it gone. What was that? For you?

Phil Cohen  55:38  
No, yeah, no, I, I didn't pack everything up in one gone that. Because for me, that would be like, almost like, I don't know, I don't want to say you're wrong. You know, I think I don't think there's a wrong way or right way to do this, really, you know, I think people have to do what's going to what's going to work for them. But I would never want, I want his memory around, you know, I want the little things, whether it be his baseball glove, or the necklace that he made for me when he was eight years old. I like I like having those things around, you know, because they are reminders of His love, you know, and, and that he was here. So I never, I never felt the need to pack it up and put it away so that I can kind of box up the pain and move it out of my life. I mean, yes, there was a point where, okay, well, you know, I got to clean up his room or take certain things out and move them away. But it wasn't, it wasn't because of an effort to try to get away from it. You know, it was more of just like, this, just, this is the right time for me to do that. And for some people, if that's a month, if that's what they feel that they have to do, as long as it's, as long as it's not coming from a place of avoidance, that's the biggest piece, I think the point that I want to make is that if you're trying to box up the things or hide the things away so that you can not see them, because they make it too painful for you. I think you're kind of missing the point. It's kind of it's going through that pain, that where the healing eventually comes from.

Victoria Volk  57:11  
There might be people listening who lost somebody that like you don't have a grave site to go to, particularly where they know that their loved one is right. I believe for me, that would add another layer of grief. That's why I asked you if you've ever been back to juniper. Yeah. What would you write juniper? to Jupiter? What did I say Juniper, juniper. Okay, well, that's an essential oil. Okay, let me rewind. Okay, what would you say to parents who like you don't have, like a cemetery or grave site to go to where they know that that's where their loved one is at? Because I imagine for me, that would be another layer of grief, to experience and go through and, and have to address and that's why I'd asked you if you had gone to back to Jupiter. What would you say to those parents? And how did you kind of work through that yourself?

Phil Cohen  58:16  
That's a great question. That really is a great question. And that's something that I I struggled with for a while, but in my heart, whether it's a graveyard, or a monument, whatever it might be, they're not there. I mean, yes, their body or their remains may be in the ground, but their spirit is not there. You know, that's just the container, and I get why it may be important to I always went to the ocean, you know, that was where, and I still do, I still do I go sit, you know, on the coast, because I feel like that was the last place that he was seen. But I feel like it's more about it, even on a daily basis, you know, I talked to Perry, I don't feel like I need to go to a specific place. But if the fears if somebody's struggling with that, you know, there, you don't necessarily have to build the statue, like I said, the, the parents of the other child when they put the statue there so that they can have someplace to go to, for me, you know, I, I'm in the process of writing a book, I did my TEDx talk. And there's other things that you can do with your pay, you know, to or what you've been through what the lessons that you've learned from what you've been through, that might serve you just as well, but I don't know that I have the best answer for that. You know, I wish they were saying I wish I could say, well, you could do this, this or this for me. You know, I was, you know, getting up on stage, you know, at a TEDx event and sharing my story, in an effort to help other people see other people heal, that I felt is was kind of like a way for me to give back. And the book that I'm writing, same thing kind of a way to, you know, to give Back, or, you know, you can do something like what the other parents did, you can build something or put a monument or do something that you feel is what helps you heal. But even if there was an actual physical place for me to go, I likely would go, I likely would go, because but I know that he's not there. You know, I, so for me, it's more I feel like the conversations and my, my the way that I honor and respect him is by by sharing his story and sharing his memory. And also now what I'm doing, I'm trying to help other people.

Victoria Volk  1:00:38  
Think it circles back to what you've said about integrating your grief and integrating the experience into your life and how it's shaped your life now. And you alluded to it earlier about your faith, I think that plays that's greatly influences how people respond to their grief, in feeling like they have a spiritual connection in some way to their departed loved one. And, you know, I think that yeah, there's a lot of influences there, I think, but I was just curious how you in particular, and what you would say to people, if they had that question for you, if they're a grieving parent, too, because I think if I'm, if I'm wondering, I'm sure someone listening is wondering, and so that's why I like to ask, and

Phil Cohen  1:01:26  
That's why I feel like my, you know, my TEDx or, and or my book that's coming out will be sort of my monument, it's not a place that I need to, you know, and the place that I need to visit, that's sort of the way that the way I look at it is trying to kind of giving, giving back in a way,

Victoria Volk  1:01:41  
Are you finding your book writing therapeutic for you?

Phil Cohen  1:01:44  
Very, yeah, very therapeutic. And I mean, and, and, but ultimately, everything, everything that I do like, is really just to help other people. Really, that's my, my biggest goal is that I just want to give people you know, either an idea or, or a story or something to think about, to let them know that they don't have to live a life of despair, whether it's the loss of a child, or the loss of a loved one, and like you said earlier, or they might be a job or a dream, you know, we should all take that time, to grieve and to feel that process. But eventually, at some point, we have to choose, you know, do you want to live there or not?

Victoria Volk  1:02:29  
So tell us about your book, when's it coming out, and where people can find you.

Phil Cohen  1:02:33  
I'm, I'm still I'm still in the editing phase, I would like to see it started to come out in the next couple of months. I don't have a specific date. But I would say sometime, maybe over the next 90 to 120 days, people can visit my website. That's Phil cohen.com, pH, IL, co H e n.com. And I have a place there where you can book a call with me, I don't charge I'm not charging you to have a conversation. But I'd love to learn more about what you've been through, and maybe any way that I might be able to help you. And if there is, you know, that's really my main goal through all this is to see if there's some way that I can help people heal, please reach out and it would be honored to be able to help.

Victoria Volk  1:03:18  
Is there anything else that you would like to share?

Phil Cohen  1:03:22  
I think you did a pretty good job of asking me all the questions around grief and Healing. And other I can't really think of anything else.

Victoria Volk  1:03:25  
Thank you so much for sharing. I will put all of the links that you mentioned in the shownotes where can people find you on social media? Where is your favorite place to be there?

Phil Cohen  1:03:40  
Either on Facebook or LinkedIn are the two places that I'm that I'm active right now.

Victoria Volk  1:03:45  
Okay, I will put those in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your story and for being here.

Phil Cohen  1:03:51  
Thank you very much Victoria for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Victoria Volk  1:03:55  
And remember, when you unleash your hearts, you unleash your life. Much love.