Hannah Howard | Food: My Perfect Obsession

Anorexia nervosa: an eating disorder characterized by attempts to lose weight to the point of starvation.

Hannah believed she was destined to suffer in silence. Her obsession with food, body image, and a strive for perfection began in middle school. She was always the tallest in her class and developed early on as well. Hannah would go through periods of starving herself followed by an episode of bingeing. This went on through college and into her 20s when she finally "got sick and tired of being sick and tired." One email to an author led to learning about a support group for those who are struggling with an eating disorder. This group opened her up to support, and a sense of community that aided her in dismantling the shame that had consumed her for so many years.

Years later, and married, it was a miscarriage that taught @hannahmhoward how to have compassion for herself in a way she hadn't fully practiced.

One book, email, a phone call -- action, can change your entire life.  Now 10 years into recovery, Hannah learned and wants to share that you're not alone, and going through challenges alone doesn't help with shame, if anything, it perpetuates it.

We all have a relationship with food, whether we have an eating disorder or not. And, like grief, there are so many ways we are misinformed and there are false beliefs we have been raised with that shape the rest of our lives.

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Transcript

Victoria Volk  0:00  
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you're listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year graver in advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let's get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. today. My guest is Hannah Howard. She is a writer and food expert who spent her formative years in New York eating, drinking, serving bartending, cooking on a line flipping giant wheels of cheese and managing restaurants. She writes about delicious things teach us food writing classes. And her memoir, feast true love in and out of the kitchen debuted as ma'am Amazon's number one best selling memoir in 2018. And her new book plenty, a memoir of food and family is out now. Thank you so much for being here.

Hannah Howard  1:35  
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you today.

Victoria Volk  1:39  
And I was like kind of mentioned before we started recording that this is a very timely conversation for me. It just, I don't know, food just keeps coming up in my world lately. Yeah, because really, we food. We have a relationship with food. It's a relationship. And I mean, for me personally, I never was taught or shown or it wasn't emulated for me that that is a real thing like to enjoy food or savor it or, you know, the preparation of it or, you know, anyway, we'll get to that. But I'm interested in learning how your relationship to food started for you in childhood. And over the years.

Hannah Howard  2:26  
Absolutely. I've always loved food. But it's always been a little bit more complicated that complicated than that. The Love came, I feel very lucky that I grew up with a mom who's a great cook and a food lover. And one of my best childhood memories. I grew up in Baltimore, and we used to go on these kind of to me, they were like great adventures to get groceries for the week. And we would go to this amazing local farmers market, we would go to the Mrs. mesterolone visit Mrs. Knox alone at this little Italian grocery store, where this propriety tests would be needing curds to make fresh mozzarella. And if I was lucky to get a taste, and we'd go to the nearest bakery and have this amazing hold on olives. And just I felt really lucky and like this was so fun. And then being part of that transformation, or my mom would cook us into ingredients into delicious things. But then from a very young age, I was also the tallest girl in my class, I was the first to get dressed. And I also just had a anxiety and a dissatisfaction with my body that felt really intense and kind of increasingly so as I grew up. And so on the one hand, I've had this really genuine joy and respect and love around food. And on the other hand, I've had a sort of fear and obsession around food. I messed around with all kinds of diets and this and that and trying to change my body. And this kind of morphed into an eating disorder that I've now thankfully been in recovery for for many years. But I think for me part of the journey and your right food is such a relationship that we all have has been untangling that first like that first really positive part from the really dark, hard part of my food relationship and really leaning into the former and kind of turning down the volume on all that fear, obsession, worry that used to take up such a huge part of my life.

Victoria Volk  4:39  
How old were you when that started to develop?

Hannah Howard  4:42  
I was really young, I think around middle school or even before I mean, I remember having these kinds of just feeling like my body was wrong and there was something wrong with me. And then around college it really kind of spiraled I, I had a I had a diagnosis in college of anorexia nervosa, which even at the time I was like, this is part of the story, but it's not the whole story, because I was just kind of always in this limbo between trying to restrict my food and binging and my weight would go up and down. And it was really a painful way to live, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And then the anorexia kind of outwardly got better because I was at a normal weight. But I was not at any kind of peace with myself or with my food for several more years, until I kind of was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I had this last epic binge, and was really like using food as a weapon to hurt myself in a way to come back. Now I'm kind of grateful because it bothered me to reach out for help. And the reaching out for help was the beginning of really recovering, changing and repairing and healing my relationship with food. And myself

Victoria Volk  6:00  
May I ask what was happening in your life, outwardly around you and your environment and things when this control things started to take shape?

Hannah Howard  6:11  
So many things were so good, which was always kind of this felt like this mystery to me, like, you know, I had I grew up in Baltimore. And then when we were in high school, we moved to the New Jersey suburbs, which I was very unhappy about very mad at my parents. And I have always been kind of a city girl, and I loved New York City and wanted to go to college there. And I got into my, my dream school, I went to Columbia. And that was what I really wanted to do. And I was so excited. And to so many things were going on, I had some amazing friends, I had some amazing opportunities. And also meanwhile, so feast, my first book tells the story of working through restaurants, because that first part of this food relationship I described, I think was a huge piece in propelling me to get a get jobs around food. And so I worked in some amazing New York City, restaurants, cheese, cheese places, and really fell in love with that world. So there were so many things that were amazing in my life, I had a I have an incredible supportive family. But I had this like, deep secret. Because I was so ashamed of this eating disorder and my struggle with food, I didn't feel safe telling anyone, I could barely admit it to myself, much less any friends or family. So it's like a really lonely experience carrying this around. And I think looking back to there was this sort of big disconnect between things on the outside, which were good and things on the inside, which were miserable.

Victoria Volk  7:57  
So where do you think that self hatred was coming from? Because I'm kind of digging further into this for people listening for parents, for mothers, I'm a mother, I have two teenage girls 12 Like she's going to be 13 and a 15 year old pretty soon. So I'm really just interested in, you know, because when I look at their environment, like, we have great family life and things, you know, so I want some insight as a parent. And can you share a little bit about that?

Hannah Howard  8:31  
Absolutely. I mean, I'm, I'm a parent, too. I'm a new new mom, I have an 18 month old daughter and congratulate expressed to them and thank you something. Yeah, yeah. And it's something I think a lot about, because I think in some part, eating disorders are like, like, I think most addictions are kind of family disease. And I really, I don't know how much of this is nature. And how much of this is nurture. I really don't think that my family did anything wrong, but I do with a lot of compassion. And I've written about this, I did watch my mom's struggle with her with her weight and her own kind of journey to accept herself and she was always on and off different diets and losing and gaining weight. And so I definitely don't blame her. I think that we're all a product of this diet culture that I've been learning more about. And the more I learned about it, the more I see that it's, it's really in the air we breathe, like we're really taught these lessons kind of implicitly that like fitness is goodness. And I think slowly, slowly, slowly, that is starting to change. Even like when I was growing up. I never saw images of bodies that didn't look like one very specific way. And I think now there are more images of bodies look other ways, but I think there's still a long way to Go. So I it's really tough I don't, and I and I hope like, I really don't want to pass this on to my kids. But I also don't know how much control that any one of us has decides, I know that the best thing I can do for myself is to continue to recover myself and, you know, build this my own positive relationship with, with all this stuff. And then the rest. I wish I had a better answer.

Victoria Volk  10:32  
No, I think you'd think you kind of did. And I think really just like how we are taught. I have a post coming up about this, because I read I came across something on the web the other day, and it kind of just the person stated that children don't know how to grieve. And that really rubbed me the wrong way. Because we come out of the womb, knowing how to grieve, we come out of the womb crying. And for the next two to, you know, for the next first three years of our life, we're expressing ourselves openly and without a without any thought of who am I going to offend? If I cry or who you know what I mean, we don't have it, we naturally express ourselves up until the point, because by age three, we've learned almost 75% of the skills that we need to deal with difficult challenges in our life. Can you believe that by age three. So those early years are the most formative for setting the foundation for relationship to food, or how we grieve, right? So I mean, there's a lot that I wish I could undo in that regard, because I wasn't healing myself either. Like in my grief, it took me many years. And so I look back of how different of a mom, I meant I am today, I'm sure you look at your experience, and oh, my gosh, almost thankful for that experience, because it makes you a better parent. Right. having had that experience. It's emulating what a healthy relationship to food looks like, what grieving looks like, in a healthy way. And so no, I think that's a great answer. I mean, that's basically what you had said, and the best thing we can do as parents is to heal ourselves to work on ourselves. Yeah,

Hannah Howard  12:31  
Yeah, absolutely. Which is a lot harder than, Oh, yeah, this thing or you know, just yeah, just do this thing. It's a lot of like, deeper work. But I think it's absolutely true.

Victoria Volk  12:43  
I just done 60 minutes last night, I was watching I don't know if you saw the whole Facebook whistleblower story, but if you watch the news piece, she actually added and went on to say that Facebook's own research into Instagram verifies and shows that Instagram is actually harmful for teenage girls, it is doing more harm than good. And they had actually talked about creating a platform for Instagram for teens or for younger for the younger people. But they've put that on the backburner. And it just makes me think that jeez, I wonder I never really gave it much thought because my my oldest daughter is on Instagram. And yeah, it's really making me rethink that, you know, what's come up for me too. And preparing for this episode is me reflecting on my own relationship to food and how I tend to not eat when I get like in the zone or I'm in I can. Oh, it's three o'clock. I haven't eaten anything. My daughter has actually. She will feed me. She will bring me food to make sure that I eat. But so yes, I'm this is I mean, I told you before we started recording that this is really a timely conversation for me too. So I again, thank you for sharing your story. What I would like to hear is more about that turning point for you. And then that what that has looked like since

Hannah Howard  14:27  
The turning point of kind of from from the struggle to the other.

Victoria Volk  14:32  
Like you were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like I've said that about that's what happened last night I said to myself when I was like just like had one word loss experience. I'm like, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah.

Hannah Howard  14:44  
Yeah. So I think I really thought for many years that I was this was just something that I was going to have to deal with and struggle with and slog through forever, like it was just my burden and light If to bear this, and I am kind of so glad that I reached that point, I guess like people talk, like alcoholics and stuff talk about like a bottom or, I mean, it really felt like that, to me, it was just like, it was just so exhausting to keep by at this point, I was kind of, I would get this like new resolution to diet harder and to really restrict, and I would for, I don't know, sometimes it was days, sometimes it was weeks, sometimes it was months. But then it would always and I think also biologically, like, we're not supposed to starve ourselves, our bodies are really smart, and they want to be nourished. And then so I would, and then inevitably, it would result the pendulum would swing the other way. And it would result in some sort of binge, and then I'd feel ashamed and embarrassed and vow to diet better and harder next time. And that went on, like for many years, and it's just not a really fun way to live at all. I think kind of breaking these promises to ourselves is really hard. The shame was really hard. Like I said, before the loneliness, I think that was really what got me, because I was just hiding this from or trying to hide it. I think people really close to me probably, were smart enough to see something was going on. But so I, let's see. So I went at the time I because I was looking for like answer. You know, while part of me felt like, this was my life, another part of me had some hope. And I was looking at, you know, so I would read, I was kind of embarrassed. So go to the Self Help section of Barnes and Noble, and kind of like, choose a book that felt more like intellectual or something. But then I have a different book. And I was reading something. And when the author was a coach, and I just on a whim, decided to email her. And I think I couldn't, you know, I was in my early 20s, I couldn't afford her services. But she I think she offered to talk with me for like, a few minutes on the phone very generously. And she suggested this group that met for eating disorder recovery, and I didn't even expect like it, it sort of came out to her. I didn't even expect that I was going to talk about this. And I kind of felt like I had nothing to lose. And I went and it was just it was kind of like a lightbulb experience to hear people share out loud. The things that kind of went on in my like in the deepest, darkest crevices of my mind, but had never spoken out loud. And then not only did they say these things like things that they did with food, their own their own feelings, their own complicated stories. And then they would just like laugh and give each other hugs. And my mind was blown. I was like, What is this, it felt weird, it felt definitely uncomfortable. I was nervous. But I was like, this is incredible. I think I'm so grateful for a part of me that felt like anything, so much of that was just being around people who understood what I was going through. And I kept going back, and I met people who understood. And I think that was this huge shift of not doing this not trying to do this alone, not in the secret corner of Barnes and Noble with my secret book, but having people to share with honestly and openly and people who had been where I had been. But now we're doing we're experiencing life and food and their bodies in a totally different way. And it gave me this kind of hope that something else really was possible. And there was a different way for me to live.

Victoria Volk  18:59  
So in conjunction with the group that you met with you, did you do therapy as well? Or what kind of along with that helped you the most?

Hannah Howard  19:09  
Yes, I did. And I'm still go to therapy today, which I find incredibly helpful. But you know, I had gone to therapy before I had gone a few times in high school in college. And I feel like it could only for me anyway, it was nothing. I think I probably saw wonderful therapists but they could only work with what I was willing to share and where I was willing to show how I was willing to show up. And I wasn't I just feel like I wasn't quite ready. And something about this group I think made me feel like I was and so that work that I was doing in therapy felt so much more like it was getting to the heart of things and I was so much more willing to be honest, even when it was hard and so yeah, therapy has really helped the group has really helped. Sometimes just like time has helped. And even little like, there's just so many little actions that have added up what we just talked about Instagram. Like being really mindful about who I follow on Instagram helps how I spend my time. Just these little little choices I make throughout the day that either can support my recovery or not so much.

Victoria Volk  20:27  
And what does that look like today? What does recovery look like? And how, how many years has it been?

Hannah Howard  20:34  
It's been almost 10 years now, which is amazing. Yeah, so it looks really different. You know, when I was in the beginning, early stages, I would go to these groups like all the time, and I was, I mean, I'm 30, I just turned 34. So it was a different time in my life. And I had more time to kind of really dig in, I would make phone calls to fellow people in recovery, I read everything I could, I was really like, kind of seeking it out as if my life depended on it, which it did. But then over the years, like, my life has grown in these amazing waves. And I'm, a few years ago, I got married, and I have kids. And I also published books and do other and have busy work. And so life has has gotten bigger. And so I feel like I've had but I've really, it's really been important for me to keep recovery as a sort of foundation in my life. Because I know that without it, all those other things don't go too well at all. So, but it, but I don't go to like all these meetings all the time, I don't know. But I still see my therapist, I still have a community of people that I've met in these groups that I text or call on occasion and they're they've become friends who I really value. And you know, when things. I think it's like another living inside of my own brain and heart. And it's like a completely different experience than it was 10 years ago. But I still I think I always will I still have moments where like, I look at a picture of myself and I freak out or I eat something and then my get so my brain so noisy about like, what was that what's gonna happen. And they, when that happens, I kind of have a plan of how to deal with it, I have, again, like people to it, sometimes worse, in my head, it's always better when I can just like share it with someone kind of dissipates. And I kind of think about how I can I could either go down that road of obsession and kind of stay in that misery. Or I can turn my thoughts elsewhere. And what else can I do? How can I be present in my life? And I tried to choose that second option as much as I can.

Victoria Volk  22:55  
Do you believe you'd be where you are now had you? Well, a not had that experience. And be would still feel that torment within you? And I know the answer. But I want to hear you.

Hannah Howard  23:11  
know, I mean, I think this, this has shaped who I am in so many ways. And so many of those ways I believe are for the better. I think dealing with this has given me so much compassion for what, you know, not everyone has an eating disorder. But everyone has that, you know, everyone struggles, everyone has something, whatever it is, you know, it doesn't have to be a substance it can be with relationships, it can be with work, it can be with money, it can be you know, we all like we all have our stuff. And I so I think it's really given me not only that compassion for others, but also so much more kindness and compassion for myself. Because my first like go to is to be incredibly hard on myself and such a perfectionist and incredibly mean to myself. And a big thing too, that I'm learning and recovery is to like, slowly ease up on that and and it's also given me a way to connect with other people. I used to really think that I was supposed to present this sort of shiny, perfect exterior, and that's how I would like win acceptance in the world. But it's like, that's not what appeals to me about other people. And you know, people don't share stories about how they were awesome. They share embarrassing stories because like, you know, there's something about humanity that we relate to the hard stuff. And so it's just given me such a better understanding, I think and I think it's made me a better I think a better mom, a better friend, a better writer. All of that.

Victoria Volk  24:48  
Yeah. And when you said, you know, everyone has their stuff, but everyone, every single person has a relationship to food. All of us do.

Hannah Howard  24:57  
That's true human you know. Not again, not everyone has an eating disorder. But that doesn't mean everyone has like a perfect rosy relationship with food it can be hard for, for all of us at times.

Victoria Volk  25:10  
Well, and here's my question. This is actually one of the things I wrote down. So, you know, when we think of eating disorder, we think of anorexia or bulimia, but what about addictions? Like an addiction to sugar? And is that addiction to sugar perpetuated by the food industry? And so, don't you? You know, so what do you have to say about that? What are your thoughts? 

Hannah Howard  25:31  
Yeah I think yeah, right. I think, you know, that was I think that was part of my uneasiness with having an eating disorder was that I had this idea of this like, little blonde anorexic girl from like, an after school special. But eating disorders don't always look like that at all right, they anorexia and bulimia exist as binge eating disorder, as does. There's a in the official diagnostic manual, there's, it's called eg N. O. 's eating disorder not otherwise specified, which was my diagnosis for a long time, which is like the most frustrating diagnosis because what does that mean? But um, it's so true. There's so many ways to have like, disorder, like a lack of order in our lives around food. And, you know, people have all this also gets kind of thought of as like a privilege to young woman's disease. But that's not the case. Like men struggle with this. People of all backgrounds, and experiences. I was also kind of like, I read stuff about how like, oh, French people have this amazing relationship with food. And then I also met like, French people in my recovery group. It's like, No, this anyone can, anyone can struggle with this. And it can look all different ways. And definitely, like, sort of the binge, right, there's a restricting side. And then there's a binging overeating side, too. And I think, I do think of my eating disorder as an addiction, not necessarily to like a substance, there's a lot of controversy within the recovery community. Whether or not like sugar is addictive. I'm not a doctor, like, I don't know. But for me, what is the addiction was kind of the obsession, like making food, this huge power over my life and my day, and you know, waking up in the morning and thinking about what I ate the day before, and not determining whether it was a good day or not, like that sort of thing. It really did feel like an addictive behavior. And then just the things I would do with food, the sneaking it, the lying about it, that just this obsession, so I think that there are a lot of parallels with addiction, whether or not I don't know whether food is addictive, but it certainly can be I mean, we've all had that experience, right of like, starting to eat something and then being like, oh, my gosh, it's gone. What happened? So yeah, it's, it's complicated

Victoria Volk  28:00  
It's very multi layered. And thank you for bringing up that it's not just this blonde small girl problem in that because my son, actually 16 and he was the smallest kid in his class, scrawny thin, bone, I mean, bony structure, but I was the littlest always. And people would say, all the time we did to her literally is Oh, you're so little, you're so scrawny, or, you know, that's not healthy, either. Like, I'm owning that as his parent that I probably was no help to that situation, either. And, you know, he had this growth spurt. You know, he started lifting weights, he started like doing push ups and things like that when he was like 12 or 13. And started, you know, he wanted protein powders, and he started to lift weights, and now he's, you know, he put on I think, 40 pounds and on like, a little over a year or about a year, and he comes back to school, and we were like, Whoa, you know, like he's transformed his body because of the hard work that he put into it. But you know, and I saw the difference it made in his confidence. And, and now again, he he's talking about, he really loves lifting weights and stuff. And so he's really talking about the next year he wants to put on even more weight and, and but it just this again, this conversation is so timely because I think it's really important that it's it's not about exactly what it's not because I said you know, it's not it matters what you eat to put on the weight. You know, you don't want to just eat a bunch of junk. You know, it really is something that I should probably pick up your book.

Hannah Howard  29:45  
Yeah, yeah. Because we all have to like live in a body right? So, of course, and there's nothing wrong with like taking care of your body and right like, you know, that's awesome that your son like wanted to do these things. and accomplish them. But when it becomes what our bodies become, like our sense of worth self worth, then it's now no longer. Right? It's not right sized, sort of I, it's, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard to find that balance. And

Victoria Volk  30:16  
That's what I'm feeling. That's what I'm feeling as a parent as his parents, like, you know, do I encourage this, you know, it's like, you know, you're perfect the way you are, like, that's, that's how you were made? And, you know, I don't know, like, I have those feelings about myself, you know, we all have this is an everybody problem. Yeah, you know, I don't care who you are. Because again, comes back to we all have a relationship to food. So when you were really struggling, what was something that was really helpful to you that and how other people supported you.

Hannah Howard  30:57  
I think, for me, I hope I'm not a broken record with this. But it was such a relief to realize that I wasn't alone with this because I did feel so kind of weird and like I there was something wrong with me, I must be broken. And just to meet these, like amazing men, and we're mostly mostly women, but some men who are who are who I really like admired and who are really impressive people, but they also struggled with this and had so much kindness and a willingness to listen and share and connect that was just that was just hugely transformative for me, just that realization that it's not some sort of moral issue that I have struggled with. This doesn't mean I'm a bad person. And it's and and one of the reasons to wanted to write and share my story is just like this deep breath of relief of not being alone, I still feel I may still feel that way, like 10 years into this journey, like, oh,

Victoria Volk  32:03  
Well, I think in grief, too. And that's why my, I've said this on a few podcasts when it's come up. But the graphic the art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone, right? Because you feel so alone, and you feel like, like you're screaming in the inside and in the like, and when you say something, and no one's listening, or they don't know what to say, or how to support you. 

Hannah Howard  32:28  
Yeah so just that, like I'm here. I'm sending you love, like those little things. They make such a difference, or they have to me for sure.

Victoria Volk  32:37  
Do you think a part of that obsession was to feel a sense of control in your life? I think maybe as teenagers especially like, you feel like you have no control in your life. And so I think it's common. I mean, is that like,

Hannah Howard  32:52  
Oh, absolutely, definitely. I think it right. Yeah, I mean, even today, like life is my experience with the with this pandemic, where there's so many unknowns in the world, and being a new mom or personal life sometimes feels really hard. And right through this, this like substance that, at least we think anyway, we can control. So that was a huge part of it for me. And this kind of fantasy that if right, if like, My food is somehow perfect, that other things will be perfect, too. But it doesn't really work out that way. Unfortunately,

Victoria Volk  33:29  
I'm gonna tie this to Grief, because in grief, one of the sterbs often mentioned or that people struggle with is with food. And with the pandemic, and people have lost people in their life and or maybe their job or they're struggling with, maybe they've lost friendships over the divide that's happened and all of the stuff that's going on, I just want people to reflect on what their relationship is to food today versus pre pandemic like, and how has that changed for them?

Hannah Howard  34:06  
I've heard from friends and colleagues in the eating disorder world and read some things that it's it's a really tough time for. I mean, it makes sense because this is a tough time for so many people, like you said for so many different reasons. And maybe food is also a symptom that shows up in people's lives. But I know that like eating disorder units and hospitals have been completely overbooked, and therapists have no room on their schedules. And I think this has come up in the last year and a half or so many so many of us. Yeah

Victoria Volk  34:39  
But the route isn't the food. That's what you know, and that's why I want to feel like it's important to say and it's grief. Grief is the issue. You know, grief is grief is our secondary pandemic to the pandemic but I do think it was our pandemic well before the pandemic. So what would you give for Tip Two? Someone who might be struggling today,

Hannah Howard  35:02  
Again, to remind you that you're not alone. You know, there's so many people out there who are struggling to or who have been through really, really, really hard, dark stuff and kind of come out the other side. And I would also say that, you know, this too shall pass. And people have told me that before. And sometimes it's like, no, this is I'm going to feel this way forever. But even the most painful, awful feelings, dissipate with time and some some kindness. So it's not going to feel this way forever.

Victoria Volk  35:44  
I want to reflect something back to you. Because I think it's not just time, but you actually took action. Yeah, you sent an email that changed the trajectory of your life experience that led to that group that you kept going back to for support. So you took action. I just wanted to highlight that.

Hannah Howard  36:06  
Yes, I think that's huge, too. And I think sometimes when we're feeling at our worst, like, action, just feel so overwhelming. But right, even that a little little like one email a little step a little showing up reaching out to someone making a call, taking a moment for yourself, whatever it is, like these small actions really add up and create momentum and for me, have led to change in a big way.

Victoria Volk  36:35  
Yeah, growth is not in our comfort zones, for sure. So yeah, congratulations for stepping out. And I'm curious to how when you found out you're pregnant with your first daughter, was that just kind of another hurdle that you felt like you had to like, kind of tackle because, you know, with my first I gained like, a ton of weight a ton of weight? And I yeah, my relationship to food was horrible. was horrible, then do. But so can you tell me, you know, just kind of dig into that a little bit, like the pregnancy. And,

Hannah Howard  37:10  
Sure, well, my first pregnancy ended up with a miscarriage, which was one of the hardest things that I've been through, which was really tough. And even though it wasn't necessarily, I mean, it is very different than an eating disorder. But I felt some similar feelings and that my body had let me down. And so that kind of disappointment with my body, in a way was familiar, although the scope felt bigger and sadder, because and then, pretty soon thereafter, we got I got pregnant again, and had a healthy pregnancy and had my daughter, Simone. And I was really kind of gearing up for because I've heard so many stories of people. I've heard people, you know, the doctor is shaming them about gaining too much weight during their pregnancy or right, they can't stop eating, like, you know, weird combinations of food are so hard on so many stories that I was worried about what was going to happen, but I feel like it was really things to recovery, that I was able to trade it pretty much trust my body. I definitely like I was nauseous in the early days, and I ate a ton of bagels, butter, which is like not a huge part of my usual diet. But that's what felt good. And I'm so grateful that I could just okay, that's, that's, you know, I ate a lot of bagels of butter for a few months. Nothing bad, nothing bad came in that, you know, I feel like very lucky that it was a much more positive and serene experience than I had expected that it would be. And I definitely gained weight. And it's definitely had uncomfortable thoughts. Because, you know, as women were really taught that like, even like any kind of weight gain is like taboo in a way even when we're growing a baby. But I was also like, so proud of my body like it made this amazing, baby. And, you know, people had said, I've heard this advice in recovery and in general for having like a healthy body image to kind of appreciate your body for what it does, right for we're giving hugs, we're walking around, we're, you know, all these things that our bodies do, instead of how they look. But that, to me, that was just kind of like words. And then But then once my body was like making a baby, it felt that felt really real like whoa, this is crazy. It's wild, you know that we grow babies inside of ourselves. So it gave me a whole new it gave me a really new appreciation for my body and how amazing it was.

Victoria Volk  39:58  
Do you think that actually to help train form, like, and kind of trickled into your relationship with food too. But you know, because I think it really comes down to self love, right? Like self love,

Hannah Howard  40:10  
Absolutely. And I still hold on to that, like we all do, you know, we all kind of, it's not like one day we're sick. And then the next day were completely perfectly well, like, we kind of have these old ideas. And I think that there's still a part of me that was trapped, like, you know, that was kind of like thought it was always better to eat something that was later. Like, there's always a little part of me that wanted to restrict my food. And that kind of turned off when I was pregnant. Because also, I was just like, really hungry. But I didn't feel that judgment towards myself, because I was like, No, I'm, I'm very new person. And, yeah, I think it's really been a positive thing for my food and body relationship.

Victoria Volk  40:57  
How about postpartum?

Hannah Howard  40:59  
Yeah, um, I mean, I feel like I had such an intense postpartum experience, because it was right at those early days of pandemic times. Where, so I, we ended up kind of packing up my parents car, because my husband and I lived in an apartment in New York City, and moving in with my parents for a while. And so we had thought I got into this, like, late, and I'm a food writer. And so you know, my life has always involved like, going to eat all these wonderful restaurant meals, and hosting cheese tastings, and, and then all of a sudden, we were like, going to the grocery store as little as we could, you know, stocking up, and it's early days. And so food was really different. But it was also kind of nice to like, cook, you know, cook our own meals, and my mom was a great cook, and she cooked a lot for us, which was such a treat. So it was interesting, and it was an eye and I was worried, too, you know, I've heard these people like, fear about their bodies changing and all these crazy ways. And my body changed in a lot of ways. And I and I don't necessarily feel like amazing about all of them. But it was it was like, okay, you know, I ended up fitting into my clothes that I was wearing before pregnancy, like perfectly fine with some time. And I kind of felt like the left side, the left I obsessed about it, the more things just kind of worked out and took care of themselves. And I hope that that's the case for the second time around.

Victoria Volk  42:48  
Well, and I think a key component to that is having support along the way to, you know, you said to me with therapy, and you have, you know, family that supports you and, and all of that. And I think that's so important and the friendships that you've made throughout recovery that you still have. And

Hannah Howard  43:07  
Absolutely, because there's definitely still like, shaky moments and anxious moments that I have. And I think we all do, but they used to really just like take over my life and now they're just a small a small part of the day.

Victoria Volk  43:22  
Well, it's just like when this when the when a special day comes around, you know, an anniversary of the death of someone or diagnosis or something like that, you know what's coming and you kind of can plan for it. But many Grievers that's they have to take that time and give themselves the time to take care of themselves during those days, and it's recognizing within ourselves what we need. What would you like to scream to the world in wish people knew about your, your grief and experience?

Hannah Howard  43:53  
Well, let's see. I felt let's see go for in terms of grief. I was kind of shocked how deeply sad and how much loss I felt when I lost this pregnancy. And I think in a way in a similar way to the eating disorder experience. It really helped me I what I started to, I remember like just a few days later watching these clips and on YouTube of Beyonce talking about her pregnancy loss. And it was like, Oh, hey, Beyonce went through this. I mean, I don't I'm not I like Beyonce, but I'm not like I'm not like obsessed with Beyonce or something but it's just it felt so healing or reading. I'm reading other people's stories. And I think just that like you are not alone. You have people who love you. We can get through this together.

Victoria Volk  44:56  
Throughout your grief experience what has given you the most joy And, and what gives you hope for the future? Like throughout this whole journey?

Hannah Howard  45:05  
Yeah, I think it really is like we kind of touched on this crazy alchemy of how something that felt like the worst part of my life, certainly, like, the most painful, shameful stuff became this really positive thing in a way because it helped me show up in a, in such a deeper way. It helped me connect with people who I really love today and help to me, it helps me kind of grow emotionally and like as a human. So I feel like that still, to me feel feels wild that what I thought was, the worst thing has turned out to be something that I'm grateful for, like genuinely. And if you would have told me that, like years ago would have made me laugh, but it's true.

Victoria Volk  45:55  
I would say the same thing about my life. And it comes back to your books. And those wouldn't be out today, if you wouldn't have had this experience. And you wouldn't be where you are today with recovery.

Hannah Howard  46:10  
Yeah, I got this new book.

Victoria Volk  46:11  
It's a beautiful cover.

Hannah Howard  46:14  
Thank you. Yeah, it's really I really love how it came out. Yeah, and it feels like such a joy. I mean, I've always loved to write and always wanted to write a book and Nigeria, getting to do that and just feels like the biggest privilege. 

Victoria Volk  46:29  
So you never imagined yourself as an author,

Hannah Howard  46:33  
I hope to be a published author, but it felt a little bit like a pipe dream. And now, my reality.

Victoria Volk  46:38  
So tell us a little bit about your books.

Hannah Howard  46:41  
Absolutely. So the first book called Feast. They're both memoirs. So they're both both personal stories. The first one is about this journey, working through restaurants and food stores, and falling in love with food and also about the struggle and recovery from the eating disorder. So it's really a book about my like food and journey. And then plenty is about meeting my husband. It's about experiencing this miscarriage and then again, a pregnancy. And it's also about finding a community of amazing women in the food world. So there's a chapter about a cheesemaker. There's a chapter about a Somali a, there's a chapter about a barge pilot who barges around the South of France to amazing food. So you know, it starts with myself. But then I also talk about all these other other amazing food women.

Victoria Volk  47:43  
Very nice thing else you'd like to share? 

Hannah Howard  47:45  
I think that's it. Thank you so much. But what a joy to get to talk. And thank you for your beautiful question.

Victoria Volk  47:54  
Thank you so much for being here. And where can people find you if they want to reach out?

Hannah Howard  47:59  
I have a website, hannahhoward.nyc and I'm on Instagram. I'm hannahmhoward

Victoria Volk  48:07  
And I will put the links for the books and your contact info on the show notes. Thank you again, for this timely conversation. I know I'm going to reflect on it well after today. And give honestly more deep thought into my personal relationship with food in how I want to emulate how important it is that we really truly think about our food in a nourishing way. For spirit for bodies, rather than like this thing that you just have to eat to sustain yourself just so you wake up tomorrow, you know, it's like, it's it's more than just that right?

Hannah Howard  48:53  
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. I mean, right. We do have to eat to sustain ourselves. But then, yeah, there's sort of concentric circles for sure. Yeah, I feel like I've also been writing about food for so many years. And every time I think, am I gonna get bored of this? Like, no, there's so much more to explore, and so many levels and ways that it touches on us, culturally, and emotionally and historically, and agriculturally and environmentally and just a huge, a huge topic. And it's so rich and I love getting to explore it.

Victoria Volk  49:30  
It is I think is there's so many layers to it. I never really thought a lot of it either until I was preparing for our conversation. And I mean, you think about it, it touches our economy, our homes, and it stems back to our childhood and our culture and how we were raised with food and just all of it Yeah, it's fascinating, fascinating. So I look forward to digging in a little bit more into my own real nation ship with food prompted by our conversation and your great share, so thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you're hurting know that what you're feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.